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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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 Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Chet Wautlands wrote: |
| walter235 wrote: |
| I remember reading sometime back a teacher posted an article from the mid-1960's about teaching in Korea. The complaints and observations were just like the ones teachers make about teaching English here today. Do you expect much to change in an old, hidebound, mediocre country like Korea? |
I get the impression that you love Korea. |
There is a point here though. Koreans really do believe in the concepts of 'teacher' and teacher-centered classes. Particularly with language classes.
Koreans have a pretty formulaic vision of what a class should be like. It comes from their history. We in the west used to teach the way Koreans do now, but then Western teaching methodology did a complete turnaround sometime in the 1970's from teacher-centered classes to student-centered classes. This never happened in east Asia.
I don't think language-learning will improve much in Korea until the philosophy of teaching changes..........and that will probably be never. |
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Fishead soup
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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"I don't need to use the textbook I just play games"
When you run into a person who makes this claim. Turn around!!!!!
Run!!!!!! and keep running |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: Why Language Classes Don't Work According to Timothy Fer |
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| Kepler wrote: |
Timothy Ferriss, a former curriculum designer at Berlitz International who has achieved fluency in six foreign languages himself, explains why most languages classes don't work:
"1. Teachers are viewed as saviors when materials are actually the determining factor. Teachers are merely conduits for the material. By analogy, it is better to have a decent cook with excellent easy-to-follow recipe than a great cook with terrible recipe. It is the material that will restrict or elevate the teacher, and a good teacher forced to follow bad material will hinder, not hasten, learning progress...."
This is a very valid point that many schools fail to understand. A lot of schools seem much more concerned about the teachers they hire than the quality of their language learning materials. It's not going to make a big difference if McDonald's hires an experienced chef to flip burgers. |
What then is quality material? Nice to hear that from someone who is blowing his own horn .....
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"2. Classes move as slowly as the slowest student...."
Obviously true... |
If you let it. If the speed of learning is delayed due to a slow student, it is the teachers responsibility to move that student to another class...
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"3. Conversation can be learned but not taught.... Grammar can be learned with writing exercises in a class of 20, whereas 'conversation' cannot be learned in anything but a realistic one-on-one environment where your brain is forced to adapt to normal speed and adopt coping mechanisms such as delaying tactics ('in other words,' 'let me think for a second,' etc.). Separate grammar from conversation practice...."
A person can spend years studying a foreign language in a classroom but then experience great difficulty in having a five minute conversation with a native speaker in a real life situation. |
Reading and listening also have a positive effect on fluency, but actual practice of course is best.
Again, this is in the realm of the control of the teacher.
Nothing he has said indicates to me that language classes don't work, everything he is saying indicates that it is the teacher, ergo the quality of the teacher, that ultimately matters. |
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Illysook
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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Moving the slowest student to another class is something that a teacher can control?!!
Do you really teach in Korea? |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Illysook wrote: |
Moving the slowest student to another class is something that a teacher can control?!!
Do you really teach in Korea? |
I own the school and I teach at the same time. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:36 am Post subject: |
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Juregen, I got the impression that Mr. Ferris was talking about common problems teachers have when trying to develop an effective teaching style, not that Language classes can never work because they're all the same.
I also teach in a Korean Middle School, and my students are put in leveled classes and they can be moved up or down if we think it's a good idea. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
Juregen, I got the impression that Mr. Ferris was talking about common problems teachers have when trying to develop an effective teaching style, not that Language classes can never work because they're all the same.
I also teach in a Korean Middle School, and my students are put in leveled classes and they can be moved up or down if we think it's a good idea. |
No.
From what I read is he is trying to sell his curriculum......
He uses the example, but comes to the wrong conclusion.
The quality of the curriculum increases the effectiveness of the teacher, nott he other way around. He gives me the impression most teachers give me, they blame everyone around them for not being able to teach, so they have an excuse for low effectiveness.
A good teacher only needs an outline of what he should aim for, a good teacher creates his own curriculum based on those guidelines, and develops the materials required to make it engaging for the students.
So, you see, I completely disagree with Mr Fenris, mostly because he is selling his own product to the masses, and using false logic to do it. |
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happiness
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 3:09 am Post subject: |
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foreign langauge learning is about going OUTSIDE yourself to reach out to another person, to maybe learn or express some new ideas. Someone said "to learn another language is to gain another soul" and its true.
Koreans are taught Korea is for Koreans to be Korean, and that really permeates, and self-defeats, so much.
They have to study for their tests, and not for learning about another culture or something else. From Kindie programs to Hagwons, the goal is IBSHI, and then company tests to get in.
BUT at the same time, their nationalistic fervor (learned from ages ago) self defeats it, and thank god for that. Keeps English teachers coming here to teach them, and the K-govt keeps asking people to come.
I speak Korean rather well, and Ill tell you its tiring at times, because while I do speak their language to them, it seen as bad and even a threat if I speak of other cultures or the like, even if to just explain. Think about it: their elders teach them Korea is best, etc, and to NEVER disobey those elders, and then a foreign teacher comes along and says something contrary. What would a lot of those learners do? Reject the learning, but still have to trudge through, to past those tests.
and I hope it doesnt change for a long while...more jobs for me  |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 3:27 am Post subject: |
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All things being equal, if your materials are half-way decent, the quality of the teacher will make all the difference, i.e. connecting with the students/ modifying mediocre material (or coming up with better material)/etc. to get the class in order.
As stated earlier, mediocre teachers tend to resort to the blame game rather than step up themselves. |
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Draz
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Location: Land of Morning Clam
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| happiness wrote: |
foreign langauge learning is about going OUTSIDE yourself to reach out to another person, to maybe learn or express some new ideas. Someone said "to learn another language is to gain another soul" and its true.
Koreans are taught Korea is for Koreans to be Korean, and that really permeates, and self-defeats, so much. |
This is why I don't leave my house any more. I continue to bang my head against that wall at work, but only because that's what they pay me for.
Learning another language myself is what made this all so obvious. It is really not as hard as they all make it look. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| happiness wrote: |
| Koreans are taught Korea is for Koreans to be Korean, and that really permeates, and self-defeats, so much. |
I have students who seem to think that not being able to speak English is actually a point of pride. Part of me wants to believe that this is just their way of consoling themselves for not being good at it-- but I'm never 100% sure. |
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Draz
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Location: Land of Morning Clam
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
| happiness wrote: |
| Koreans are taught Korea is for Koreans to be Korean, and that really permeates, and self-defeats, so much. |
I have students who seem to think that not being able to speak English is actually a point of pride. Part of me wants to believe that this is just their way of consoling themselves for not being good at it-- but I'm never 100% sure. |
That's what I used to think... then I realized I feel exactly the same way about Korean. I've made a few half-hearted attempts to study it and every time I get beyond memorizing vocabulary and a little way into the pointless confucianist grammar rules I get so turned off. I can only imagine how my disgust would deepen if it were actually being crammed down my throat like English is with Koreans. Like if I had to take mandatory classes instead of just being told by everyone that I ought to learn it.
Language is culture and the two cultures are just completely incompatible. |
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Fishead soup
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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(1) Regarding materials. It's not just the materials it's the students.
Really great materials can be wasted on poorly motivated students.
(2) Classes move as slow as the slowest students
That's why we use groupwork. When you have students working in groups you can tailor the materials so that each group is working at it's own zone
proximal developement. Having a class of 35-45 students working through the same worksheet is pretty old fashioned.
If your working in one of these public school programs like GEPIK SMOE
EPIK schools should be streamlining your classes so you have a pretty good idea about the classes level. |
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