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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 6:46 am Post subject: Raise US Taxes |
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Welcome to the Raise US Taxes thread. There are many reasons to raise taxes, the most important of which: the US gov't owes a lot of money on debt. This much money.
Here we'll aggregate articles about (1) different ways to raise taxes and (2) reasons why we should raise taxes. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 6:49 am Post subject: |
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51% of Americans pay no Federal Income Taxes
Its official, the majority of Americans pay no Federal Income Taxes.
| Derek Thompson wrote: |
| Half of American tax payers owe no federal income tax, and most of those filers actually net tax benefits from federal income taxes, according to analysis from the Joint Committee on Taxation in a letter to the Republicans on the Senate Finance Committee. |
But many of those Americans do pay payroll taxes.
| Derek Thompson wrote: |
| The majority of households who pay no income tax still pay net taxes to the IRS. Federal income taxes account for about 40 percent of total government receipts. Most of the rest comes from payroll taxes, which workers of all income levels do pay. Since every dollar up to $106,800 is subject to taxes, a typical middle class family pays payroll taxes on all its income while a millionaire employee pays payroll taxes on only a tenth of his income. |
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Madigan
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Do you mean raising taxes or raising revenues? The two are not mutually exclusive. The best way to raise revenues would be to lower and flatten tax rates while eliminating as many deductions, kickbacks and other loopholes as possible. We need to include as many people and organizations as possible if there is any hope to raise sufficient revenues. The fact that there is a top 35% statuary corporate tax rate, the second highest in the developed World, while powerful connected firms like General Electric pay absolutely no corporate taxes is absurd.
Also there was this from the OP:
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| I have a feeling we're going to hear variations of the question: How can the rich be paying too much while income inequality is at an 80 year high? I think it's better to see both stats as a part of the same story rather than two conflicting narratives. In the last 30 years, incomes have grown faster at the top than the middle. Over the same time, effective tax rates fell for every family. And because a four percentage-point tax cut means a 50 percent tax cut for the poor but only a 10 percent tax cut for the rich, the share of overall taxes paid by the middle- and lower-class has decreased faster than their share of pretax income. |
Low interest rates have been a boon for the rentier class, whose top tax rate tops out at 15%, at the expense of the those in lower income strata. That is to say that those who have money in the stock market and those who make speculative bets on commodities like oil and silver have become fantastically wealthy. However, those very commodities that that have enriched the upper classes have also been a frustration for the poor. The poor, as well as the rest of us, have seen the prices of gasoline, energy and basic foodstuffs rise. I don't mean to beat a dead horse with the Fed, but I do think that hiking interest rates will:
1. Raise the value of each tax Dollar collected;
2. Encourage the government not to be so profligate and wasteful; and
3. Provide some relief in making basic necessities more affordable. |
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Abe Scrap
Joined: 01 May 2011
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:24 am Post subject: |
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The Off-Topic Forum is here
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewforum.php?f=4
PLEASE DO NOT POST ON THIS FORUM unless it is a CURRENT EVENT. One man's brainstorm may be another's wack job. Spare us. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:33 am Post subject: |
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Please put political threads on the Current Events forum. Any put [in off-topic] will be removed.
While you're here, please tell us what its like to be both wrong and obnoxious. Besides, haven't I schooled you on this rule before, Space Bar?
| Madigan wrote: |
| The best way to raise revenues would be to lower and flatten tax rates while eliminating as many deductions, kickbacks and other loopholes as possible. |
I consider eliminating deductions and exemptions, aka eliminating tax expenditures, to be raising taxes. And I support that, particularly eliminating the mortgage-interest deduction. I don't agree about flattening tax rates, though. The Bush tax cuts are hurting our country, have been hurting our country, and we need to restore to Clinton rates OR adopt Bowles-Simpson. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:44 am Post subject: |
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Yesterday I read an article that said there was some kind of game on the internet about balancing the budget. I'm too sleepy to look it up now, but the gist of it was that when left to the general public (at least those who volunteered to play the game), they did it by 1/2 tax raises and 1/2 budget cuts. That seems to me to be roughly the right approach (with the bulk of the cuts coming from defense).
Mr. Scrap:
I suspect that people who joined up in '04 rather than this week probably know the type of topic this board accepts.
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But many of those Americans do pay payroll taxes.
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Just to add this: also sales taxes, property taxes... |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Raise US Taxes |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Welcome to the Raise US Taxes thread. There are many reasons to raise taxes, the most important of which: the US gov't owes a lot of money on debt. This much money.
Here we'll aggregate articles about (1) different ways to raise taxes and (2) reasons why we should raise taxes. |
Do you seriously consider yourself a libertarian? I thought I read that somewhere...
Anyway, for those who still have no clue how the monetary system works, let me point out an indisputable fact: it is literally, mathematically impossible to pay off the debt, or even to reduce it. The debt has never gone down once in the history of central banking. This is because all money is issued as debt in the first place.
Saying we need to raise taxes to pay off the debt is an absurdist proposition. What it really entails is paying interest to the bankers who create said money out of thin air (aka "fractional reserve banking"). |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Raise US Taxes |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
Welcome to the Raise US Taxes thread. There are many reasons to raise taxes, the most important of which: the US gov't owes a lot of money on debt. This much money.
Here we'll aggregate articles about (1) different ways to raise taxes and (2) reasons why we should raise taxes. |
Do you seriously consider yourself a libertarian? I thought I read that somewhere...
Anyway, for those who still have no clue how the monetary system works, let me point out an indisputable fact: it is literally, mathematically impossible to pay off the debt, or even to reduce it. The debt has never gone down once in the history of central banking. This is because all money is issued as debt in the first place.
Saying we need to raise taxes to pay off the debt is an absurdist proposition. What it really entails is paying interest to the bankers who create said money out of thin air (aka "fractional reserve banking"). |
I'm much more of a deficit hawk than a libertarian. I also support spending cuts. But we should raise taxes insofar as we cut spending. I'd rather pay increased taxes now than for the rest of my life.
The debt most certainly went down after WWII after we raised taxes. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Raise US Taxes |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| The debt most certainly went down after WWII after we raised taxes. |
What do you mean it went down? Got a source? Unless I'm misunderstanding your meaning somehow, then you are claiming the impossible... Since all money is issued as debt, the debt can never go down unless the money supply is contracted (which would imminently lead to a total collapse). |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Raise US Taxes |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| The debt most certainly went down after WWII after we raised taxes. |
What do you mean it went down? Got a source? Unless I'm misunderstanding your meaning somehow, then you are claiming the impossible... Since all money is issued as debt, the debt can never go down unless the money supply is contracted (which would imminently lead to a total collapse). |
You're right. Aggregate debt and even debt adjusted for inflation stalled during that period. I was thinking debt as a share of GDP. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| The debt most certainly went down after WWII after we raised taxes. |
What do you mean it went down? Got a source? Unless I'm misunderstanding your meaning somehow, then you are claiming the impossible... Since all money is issued as debt, the debt can never go down unless the money supply is contracted (which would imminently lead to a total collapse). |
You're right. Aggregate debt and even debt adjusted for inflation stalled during that period. I was thinking debt as a share of GDP. |
Let me put it this way: literally every single dollar in existence is owed to somebody (and in our crazy world of derivatives and credit default swaps etc. etc. often to many people at once). No matter how high you raise taxes, it is mathematically impossible to even reduce the debt, never mind pay it off. Not in a debt-based monetary system. The real issue is that all of the debt bears interest, and is ultimately owed back to the lenders (banks that conjured the money out of thin air using the fractional reserve method of money creation).
In regards to the government, the more they borrow (issuing bonds), the more the currency is debased through inflation, and the more interest there is to pay off. The public thereby gets doubly squeezed. Do you think it's right and moral for the government to spend trillions (funded by bond issuance mainly) on wars and then increase taxes to pay off the interest? That is to say interest paid to the same private banking system that just bankrupted the economy (before doling out record bonuses to execs) and put the taxpayer on the hook for around $9 trillion in bailouts? I really don't see the logic in that. |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| The debt most certainly went down after WWII after we raised taxes. |
What do you mean it went down? Got a source? Unless I'm misunderstanding your meaning somehow, then you are claiming the impossible... Since all money is issued as debt, the debt can never go down unless the money supply is contracted (which would imminently lead to a total collapse). |
You're right. Aggregate debt and even debt adjusted for inflation stalled during that period. I was thinking debt as a share of GDP. |
Let me put it this way: literally every single dollar in existence is owed to somebody (and in our crazy world of derivatives and credit default swaps etc. etc. often to many people at once). No matter how high you raise taxes, it is mathematically impossible to even reduce the debt, never mind pay it off. Not in a debt-based monetary system. The real issue is that all of the debt bears interest, and is ultimately owed back to the lenders (banks that conjured the money out of thin air using the fractional reserve method of money creation).
In regards to the government, the more they borrow (issuing bonds), the more the currency is debased through inflation, and the more interest there is to pay off. The public thereby gets doubly squeezed. Do you think it's right and moral for the government to spend trillions (funded by bond issuance mainly) on wars and then increase taxes to pay off the interest? That is to say interest paid to the same private banking system that just bankrupted the economy (before doling out record bonuses to execs) and put the taxpayer on the hook for around $9 trillion in bailouts? I really don't see the logic in that. |
Absolute nonsense. You have no idea how our monetary system works. Try reading this: http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/FRS-myth.htm#hd25 . Of course it is a complete waste of time to argue with someone like you. I am posting this only for the benefit of others who are intelligent enough to comprehend the above link which totally debunks your crackpot theory. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| jaykimf wrote: |
| Absolute nonsense. You have no idea how our monetary system works. Try reading this: http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/FRS-myth.htm#hd25 . Of course it is a complete waste of time to argue with someone like you. I am posting this only for the benefit of others who are intelligent enough to comprehend the above link which totally debunks your crackpot theory. |
Yeah, you've been posting that same sophomoric, totally debunked link for years now. Get a new line already. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 11:23 am Post subject: |
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Here's one little gem from jaykim's absurd link above:
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| Moreover, the theory of interest-cost inflation has an additional shortcoming. Even if higher interest rates caused prices to increase, they could not explain inflation. Inflation is not high prices; it is not higher prices; it is rising prices; prices that go higher and higher continually. That means that interest costs would have to continually increase to produce inflation. Moreover, whenever interest costs fell, there would be deflation -- not slower inflation. |
Ridiculous on all counts. First the strawman that anyone was claiming interest would cause high static prices  Obviously, the prices are rising, since interest cost builds up over time. Second, the assertion that if interest rates fell there would be deflation is incorrect. You would somehow have to have negative interest rates for that happen. At least the author acknowledges the fact that overall prices have never dropped, but only continue to go up.
Basically, jaykim's article is just a big piece of sophistry and obvious fallacies. It is not, and never has been worth taking seriously (ever since he started whipping it out to support his faulty views of the Fed in every debate since well over a year ago). |
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Menino80
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Raise the SS base wage to 150k, capital gains to 27%, bring the top marginal rate down to 33-35. |
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