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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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 Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Son Deureo! wrote: |
| Just so we're clear, Mr. Milk, we're on the same side here. |
Oh yeah.. that was just sort of an aside about how Google seems to be replacing certain aspects of communication. |
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Son Deureo!
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| TECO wrote: |
| Son Deureo! wrote: |
TECO, I'm going to spell this out for you because you don't appear to be very good at taking a hint.
I'm perfectly aware of the fact that in academic circles EFL refers to teaching English to non-native speakers in countries where English is not widely spoken (e.g. teaching English to Koreans in Korea), while ESL refers to teaching English to non-native speakers in countries where English is widely spoken (e.g. teaching English to Korean immigrants living in the USA). |
One thing you can't seem to get through your thick skull is that we do not teach in an ESL context. Simple - do I need to break out the crayons and diagram it for you? Which colors do you like? |
I like red. Do you disagree with my definition of an ESL or EFL context? Because I do know that I and the OP teach English to Koreans in Korea. I'm not denying that yes, pretty much everyone on this forum is teaching what academics call EFL, not ESL. Yep, other posters in this thread and this forum sometimes call it ESL instead of EFL. Look at the upper left hand corner of this page and you'll see that Dave Sperling does, too. Whoopdee doo.
I don't think anyone here is confused about is that the OP is asking questions about teaching English in Korea to Korean students, and are trying to give him the best advice they can for his situation.
But since this is such a point of contention to you, TECO, can you tell us exactly what advice was given here that's relevant and ESL context, but not an EFL context? |
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Carbon
Joined: 28 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| Son Deureo! wrote: |
But since this is such a point of contention to you, TECO, can you tell us exactly what advice was given here that's relevant and ESL context, but not an EFL context? |
Point of contention?! We teach EFL; there is nothing to discuss. Saying otherwise is just incorrect, regardless of the nature of the discussion. |
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Son Deureo!
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, I agree. We teach EFL not ESL. That's still irrelevant to all of the advice given. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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TECO
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2011 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Son Deureo! wrote: |
| TECO wrote: |
| Son Deureo! wrote: |
TECO, I'm going to spell this out for you because you don't appear to be very good at taking a hint.
I'm perfectly aware of the fact that in academic circles EFL refers to teaching English to non-native speakers in countries where English is not widely spoken (e.g. teaching English to Koreans in Korea), while ESL refers to teaching English to non-native speakers in countries where English is widely spoken (e.g. teaching English to Korean immigrants living in the USA). |
One thing you can't seem to get through your thick skull is that we do not teach in an ESL context. Simple - do I need to break out the crayons and diagram it for you? Which colors do you like? |
I like red. Do you disagree with my definition of an ESL or EFL context? Because I do know that I and the OP teach English to Koreans in Korea. I'm not denying that yes, pretty much everyone on this forum is teaching what academics call EFL, not ESL. Yep, other posters in this thread and this forum sometimes call it ESL instead of EFL. Look at the upper left hand corner of this page and you'll see that Dave Sperling does, too. Whoopdee doo.
I don't think anyone here is confused about is that the OP is asking questions about teaching English in Korea to Korean students, and are trying to give him the best advice they can for his situation.
But since this is such a point of contention to you, TECO, can you tell us exactly what advice was given here that's relevant and ESL context, but not an EFL context? |
Weak.
Carry on your love match with ESL Milk. |
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
| Enrico Palazzo wrote: |
| You're definitely right about that. The universities in Korea are the only ones that appreciate qualified instructors. I cannot expect someone simply to know how to teach. It does take experience or a lot of innate creativity. However, he has only posted once. That's why I wondered if he were truly serious. |
I don't know about that-- if you're talking about hiring policies then maybe that's true, but I definitely think that being qualified or at least genuinely dedicated to the job is more likely endear you to the other teachers at the school, provided you're not unreasonably socially retarded.
A lot of the whole 'you are a monkey now dance' stuff is due to a long succession of teachers doing just that before most of us even arrived-- to the point where it's what's expected from us.
But if you hit upon a school that hasn't had that, where the NET actually taught, then that's what you'll be expected to do as well. A lot of the time, being a monkey is sort of a default when you're just not doing very well and don't know how to make it better.
And I have never heard of someone who is qualified, experienced, dedicated and not totally clueless ever being forced into the monkey role.. that's mostly clueless newbies, and recent grads... TEFL or no, if you don't know what you're doing and you're not getting it, then your co-teacher is going to have to think of some way to make you worth the money-- and monkey is usually it.
There are sometimes racist co-teachers and control freaks, but that's another matter... |
It's understandable that someone who has no experience teaching and didn't really study the various theories and have some training in teaching will have some issues. Of course, if one had good teachers in school, one can think of how they taught you. The only problem is in many cases the methods used back then would be viewed as somewhat outdated. The universities, are not the only ones, to focus on quality. Many of the public schools do, as well, and some hagwons. Hagwons in many cases will want people who have no Korea experience because they focus more on the bottom-line. It depends. I mean they will post things like -"Great job for someone with no experience". |
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| Fishead soup wrote: |
| TECO wrote: |
| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
Monkeys can listen and repeat.
I really hope you don't honestly think that the entire scope of all ESL teaching is listen and repeat vs. hangman. |
Comments are not directed at you per se since I know you know the difference, but to readers here in general.
It's not ESL. We don't teach ESL in Korea, Taiwan or Japan. We teach EFL! The context and demands are different. People here haven't taken the time to learn about teaching methodology or the difference between ESL or EFL.
Audio- Lingualism is part of the lesson plan known as "controlled practice". Substitution drilling which is part of the Audio Lingual Approach is used in the Textbook Side by Side. Backchanting is also considered ALA.
Ideally you want to eventially go to Freer practice.
I'm not advocating using the full forty five minutes on choral repetition but I've never met anybody who can go the full forty five minutes without using it at least once. Even if you're playing a Baam game you're gonna do listen and repeat when the target expressions appear on the screen.
Also, the Audiolinguial method has worked well in Russia where generations studied English using this approach. But because it was based on behaviorist theory it was criticized. |
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The Audio-Lingual method is a rather outdated method. There is more of a focus on an eclectic approach, which draws heavily on the communicative method while focusing the students attention on forms which the traditional communicative approach did not do. The problem with the old school communicative method is that students don't learn the grammar adequately.
You have to have some explanation of grammar. Communicative method purists from the 1980s think you will simply get the grammar structure through context. A Russian friend of mine who was not used to the communicative method in the pure form which I don't teach. The part I agree about from the communicative method is that you shouldn't teach all the conjugations at one time. The students won't absorb that.
I know some people like the ALM method, but students in the traditional ALM are repeating things too much without understanding what they are repeating. That's not effective.
Also, correcting students directly has been proven to be ineffective. Don't simply tell your students the answers when they get it wrong. It's not effective and recasting it i.e. reformulating their answer sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. It's sometimes better to make them pay attention to what they said by repeating what they said in a questioning way....
I am go to school?
Then, they will pay attention to the error. |
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Fishead soup
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Enrico Palazzo wrote: |
| Fishead soup wrote: |
| TECO wrote: |
| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
Monkeys can listen and repeat.
I really hope you don't honestly think that the entire scope of all ESL teaching is listen and repeat vs. hangman. |
Comments are not directed at you per se since I know you know the difference, but to readers here in general.
It's not ESL. We don't teach ESL in Korea, Taiwan or Japan. We teach EFL! The context and demands are different. People here haven't taken the time to learn about teaching methodology or the difference between ESL or EFL.
Audio- Lingualism is part of the lesson plan known as "controlled practice". Substitution drilling which is part of the Audio Lingual Approach is used in the Textbook Side by Side. Backchanting is also considered ALA.
Ideally you want to eventially go to Freer practice.
I'm not advocating using the full forty five minutes on choral repetition but I've never met anybody who can go the full forty five minutes without using it at least once. Even if you're playing a Baam game you're gonna do listen and repeat when the target expressions appear on the screen.
Also, the Audiolinguial method has worked well in Russia where generations studied English using this approach. But because it was based on behaviorist theory it was criticized. |
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The Audio-Lingual method is a rather outdated method. There is more of a focus on an eclectic approach, which draws heavily on the communicative method while focusing the students attention on forms which the traditional communicative approach did not do. The problem with the old school communicative method is that students don't learn the grammar adequately.
You have to have some explanation of grammar. Communicative method purists from the 1980s think you will simply get the grammar structure through context. A Russian friend of mine who was not used to the communicative method in the pure form which I don't teach. The part I agree about from the communicative method is that you shouldn't teach all the conjugations at one time. The students won't absorb that.
I know some people like the ALM method, but students in the traditional ALM are repeating things too much without understanding what they are repeating. That's not effective.
Also, correcting students directly has been proven to be ineffective. Don't simply tell your students the answers when they get it wrong. It's not effective and recasting it i.e. reformulating their answer sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. It's sometimes better to make them pay attention to what they said by repeating what they said in a questioning way....
I am go to school?
Then, they will pay attention to the error. |
I don't use that much ALA these days I like to use Task Based Learning. A good pioneer for TBA in Korea is Andrew Finch. He works at Kyoungbuk University. The idea is you get the students to become more autonomous and teach themselves. You start with simple surveys and dialogues and you slowly make the activities more difficult. A good introduction to his teaching methodology is in a video on his site called" An intergrated Lesson" |
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