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Korean children most unhappy in OECD
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TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:02 am Post subject:

eamo wrote:

Kuros wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Kuros wrote:

TUM, do you dispute the underlying findings, or just the Dave's responses?

I'm disputing the survey's methodology.

The survey takes a sample of Korean children from this year and compares them with data from 2006 regarding the other OECD nations.
Why 2006 and not 2011? Or 2007, 2008...? Point being you just can't take data from one year and attempt to shoehorn it into data from 5 years ago.

Yeah, that's definitely a failing.

It may be a failing in technical terms.......but look at it with a bit of common sense. Does anyone really think that western children have become significantly less happy in the last 4 years? Or that Korean children have become significantly more happy?

I think the results of the survey would stand if it used updated information.

Forget common sense simply do a little more research to put the article into context.
http://rki.kbs.co.kr/english/news/news_Dm_detail.htm?lang=e&id=Dm&No=81329&current_page=

It says they are least happy among a GROUP of OECD countries not ALL OECD countries. Furthermore it says that happiness index was lower than 23 of the 34 countries. It also points out that Korean children have apparently become only so miserable in the last three years.

So yes if Korean children can become so miserable as to gain the bottom spot among this group of OECD countries in the last three years then Western children could have become less happy in four. For example the global crisis which started in 2009 could have made a lot more Western children unhappy as their parents lost their jobs or as the collapse of the financial markets, the housing markets...

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:57 am Post subject:

Koreadays wrote:

the problem I see with Korean schools is are the lack of activities and subjects for the kids to learn.
all they focus on here is ACADEMICS! that's it.
no arts, no sports, no creativity.
no wonder they all graduate like preprogrammed robots!

at least back home we had so much more to offer to kids than just math.

guess this is why Korea things screw creativity. lets just rip off other peoples designs and resell them. much easier and more profitable.

Well when you're a bombed out country with little natural resources and no prior mass industrialization (unlike Japan/Germany), the way to the top is not through creativity, its through selling cheap products. You need money to be creative (R&D).

Are you serious? The kids at my public school have robotics, ethics, cooking, traditional instruments, art, orchestra/band, taekwondo/kendo/judo/soccer/basketball/golf/in-line/track, and Hanja+English. This in addition to Math, Korean, Science, Gym, Voice, and History.

Also I would submit that the responsibility of public schools IS academics. Those extra-curriculars are the parent's responsibility. I don't think half the things they teach in public school should be taught. Schools should not teach ethics, parents should. It is the parent's responsibility to make a child creative and responsible. It is the school's responsibility to ensure specific levels of achievement in certain academic disciplines.

liveinkorea316

Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: South Korea

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 4:53 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Koreadays wrote:

I don't think anyone was blaming the public schools. It is obviously the parents responsibility. After all, no-one is forced to go to Hagwons except by their parents.

And I would venture to guess your school is an elementary school.

High school and Elementary school in Korea are light years apart. Completely different. Korean elementary schools are actually quite similar to Western ones.

Koreadays

Joined: 20 May 2008

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 5:40 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Are you serious? The kids at my public school have robotics, ethics, cooking, traditional instruments, art, orchestra/band, taekwondo/kendo/judo/soccer/basketball/golf/in-line/track, and Hanja+English. This in addition to Math, Korean, Science, Gym, Voice, and History.

Also I would submit that the responsibility of public schools IS academics. Those extra-curriculars are the parent's responsibility. I don't think half the things they teach in public school should be taught. Schools should not teach ethics, parents should. It is the parent's responsibility to make a child creative and responsible. It is the school's responsibility to ensure specific levels of achievement in certain academic disciplines.

your school is not like most schools, all the schools I know of, don't have anything you have mentioned for free...
golf? in line skating, TRACK? wow actual meets?organized coaching and games with other schools on weekends? interesting...

I think it's a social issue to teach ethnics schools need to be teaching it, as well as parents, problem with parents teaching is, is many parents are prejudice , racists, gangsters, uneducated, criminals, wankers, etc etc
if we left ethnics to parents there would be more racism ..

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 11:36 am Post subject:

eamo wrote:

Kuros wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Kuros wrote:

TUM, do you dispute the underlying findings, or just the Dave's responses?

Yeah, that's definitely a failing.

If by common sense, you mean supplanting the research failings of a study with anecdotal evidence, this a study cannot do, or at least it cannot do and be taken seriously.

eamo wrote:

I think the results of the survey would stand if it used updated information.

I don't really care. I think the survey, if it wants to pass muster as an authoritative study, should compare data from the same year, or at least adjacent years if data from the same year is unavailable.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:09 pm Post subject:

Koreadays wrote:

Yeah...Considering in all these activities if the kids do well they go onto the provincial level this would be a Gyeongnam wide thing.

The kids might pay a small equipment fee or something, but its sponsored by our school and coached by teachers/specialists we hire.

You mean your school doesn't have art class or an orchestra or gayageum?

[quote]I think it's a social issue to teach ethnics schools need to be teaching it, as well as parents, problem with parents teaching is, is many parents are prejudice , racists, gangsters, uneducated, criminals, wankers, etc etc
if we left ethnics to parents there would be more racism ..

Quote:

According to the naysayers here the Korean schools indoctrinate the kids with racism.

Anyways, I think the school's have a responsibility to present different schools of though in say, a philosophy class. And they have a responsibility to educate on the laws of the land. Teaching its against the law to discriminate based on race? Great. But being "racist" is not against the law provided you don't violate the law in so doing. The schools should have no business moralizing people on stuff that is perfectly legal, no matter how distasteful we find it. Who gets to decide what is put into the curriculum and how its taught?

Relying on the government and the schools to teach your kids ethics and morality is a recipe for disaster.

Quote:

High school and Elementary school in Korea are light years apart.

Yeah its an elementary. From what I understand High Schools follow a vocational track. Those that go to Technical school include art and music students. Those that go to standard High School are tracked for LS&A or Medicine and Business.

At the High School age I think athletics and other activities should be greatly diminished in significance while at school. If a child wants to continue to develop in art or music, great. But have that done privately.

I also think that the High School schedule should be shortened accordingly and reflect a University schedule. 4-5 hours and done. Three 90 minute classes.

eamo

Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:21 pm Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

eamo wrote:

Kuros wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Kuros wrote:

TUM, do you dispute the underlying findings, or just the Dave's responses?

Yeah, that's definitely a failing.

If by common sense, you mean supplanting the research failings of a study with anecdotal evidence, this a study cannot do, or at least it cannot do and be taken seriously.

eamo wrote:

I think the results of the survey would stand if it used updated information.

I mean use your common sense to predict that the findings would not be all that different.

Afterall, this was a survey carried out by Yonsei University and published by Korean newspapers.......if the findings were such a surprise, as in Koreans believed their children had a really great life and were happy as clams, wouldn't they be questioning the results more? But they know themselves that Korean kids go through a lot of hardships.

cj1976

Joined: 26 Oct 2005

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:28 pm Post subject:

Regardless of the stats, just ask yourself if you would like your kids to grow up in this way. I wouldn't wish this miserable Korean life on anyone. From cradle to grave, it's all obligation and endurance.

Koreadays

Joined: 20 May 2008

Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 1:35 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

The kids might pay a small equipment fee or something, but its sponsored by our school and coached by teachers/specialists we hire.

You mean your school doesn't have art class or an orchestra or gayageum?

yes they have art, pe, and music ( recorder)

but nothing like organized competitive team sports playing other schools for regional titles, sponsored sports like tennis, badminton or hockey, like we all had growing up.. I mean I don't know about your soccer field at your school, but ours is a piece of dirt. field hockey. tennis courts, basketball courts, swimming? football? WHERE?

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:10 am Post subject:

Koreadays wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

My school is an elementary school so that might be a difference.

But our pitch is brand new artificial turf with a track on it as well. We also have a gymnasium with a basketball court.

Our boys basketball team finished first in regionals last year and was third this year. I helped coach them. Our track, soccer, jump rope and I believe, inline teams all went to meets. Our school teams all have uniforms and daily practice. We have a trophy hall for all the things our school has won.

Tennis and golf are offered as instructional classes.

One of my students is going to the provincial robotics olympiad.

But I'm not sure if all high schools offer sports. That might be a more AAU kind of thing so if you are talking High School then I am clueless. But elementary is pretty much the same.

In fact as I remember, my baseball and soccer teams for elementary were not sponsored by my school back home but were part of our county's "Rec & Ed" programme.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 7:02 am Post subject:

eamo wrote:

Kuros wrote:

eamo wrote:

Kuros wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Kuros wrote:

TUM, do you dispute the underlying findings, or just the Dave's responses?

Yeah, that's definitely a failing.

If by common sense, you mean supplanting the research failings of a study with anecdotal evidence, this a study cannot do, or at least it cannot do and be taken seriously.

eamo wrote:

I think the results of the survey would stand if it used updated information.

Who are these "Koreans"? We have one reporter here who's pushing an agenda. That's it. For all we know Koreans may be questioning the survey or it even may be that they are mostly unaware of said survey. Surely a majority of the 50 million or so Koreans haven't read this.

NohopeSeriously

Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: The Christian Right-Wing Educational Republic of Korea

Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 7:14 am Post subject:

cj1976 wrote:

Regardless of the stats, just ask yourself if you would like your kids to grow up in this way. I wouldn't wish this miserable Korean life on anyone. From cradle to grave, it's all obligation and endurance.

Of course. This elitist mindset is also killing South Korea, just ironically like what North Korea is doing.

eamo

Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.

Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 3:10 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

eamo wrote:

Kuros wrote:

eamo wrote:

Kuros wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Kuros wrote:

TUM, do you dispute the underlying findings, or just the Dave's responses?

Yeah, that's definitely a failing.

If by common sense, you mean supplanting the research failings of a study with anecdotal evidence, this a study cannot do, or at least it cannot do and be taken seriously.

eamo wrote:

I think the results of the survey would stand if it used updated information.

The subject of the survey is happiness levels among Korean children. Just about every Korean I know, and every relevant report I've seen on Korean TV, blames the intensely competitive educations system for making their children's lives one of drudgery and harshly dividing Korean society between winners and losers. I've never heard a Korean personally or publicly say otherwise.

When I mentioned the survey to my wife a couple of days ago she sighed, said, yeah, she had heard about it. It was on the news. Koreans feel bad about it.

But they feel there's nothing they can do. The education/hagwon system is a runaway train.

The dogs in the street know Korean kids go through a tough education system!! You don't?? Are you so determined to defend Korea/Koreans in every way possible that you will even start to disagree with Koreans themselves about this??

The drudgery of Korean school life is something Koreans are acutely aware of. How did you miss this sentiment?

Or are you just going to paint yourself into a corner and say that every comment about Korea and Koreans should be verified by national referendum results!! Ask all 50 million Koreans about everything??
Do you like spicy food?..... Yes! x 50,000,000!!
Ok. Now it's safe to say on Dave's that Korean like spicy food.

tatertot

Joined: 21 Oct 2008

Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:03 pm Post subject:

eamo wrote:

-OT rant-

Is the hagwon culture in Korea really necessary? I don't think so, but it is difficult for parents to "risk" their children's future by not participating in the hagwon system.

I often hear the complaint that Korean public schools don't provide proper education. I don't know if that is really true, though.

I do believe that the Korean education system relies overmuch on multiple choice tests. However, does attending hagwons really extend an advantage to the attendee? To answer this, I think we need to ask:

Are students tested on material that is not taught or covered in schools? This question is in regards to both midterm/final exam type tests and the university entrance exam.

If these tests contain only material that is covered by the school curriculum, then hagwons are not necessary. If these tests contain material that is not learned in schools, then there is a bigger problem. Students should not be expected to know things that are not taught to them in the course of their regular school education.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 3:27 am Post subject:

eamo wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

eamo wrote:

Kuros wrote:

eamo wrote:

Kuros wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Kuros wrote:

TUM, do you dispute the underlying findings, or just the Dave's responses?

Yeah, that's definitely a failing.

If by common sense, you mean supplanting the research failings of a study with anecdotal evidence, this a study cannot do, or at least it cannot do and be taken seriously.

eamo wrote:

I think the results of the survey would stand if it used updated information.

Calm down Mr. eamo. No one is disputing that Koreans don't have a fairly tough row to hoe when it comes to school life. I'm simply disputing the accuracy of said results. Back in 2006 which was the date of the results for the other nations...Korea wasn't at the bottom then. As the article I linked to above shows...it's only been the last three years that they've been down there. Why not use Korea's results from 2006? The only reason I can see is that the reporter is pushing some kind of agenda. If you have another plausible reason would you like to share it with us?

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