|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Axedall
Joined: 06 Nov 2008
|
 Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 7:25 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Axedall wrote: |
| My 'extracurricular' jobs ranged from teaching 'executive' English sessions at nice hotels to leading in a television travel documentary for SK tourism and editing research papers for a major university. All with no previous experience and on the standard E2(?) visa. The good thing was that I could get some great experience in these areas to put on my resume and use elsewhere. There aren't many places I know where you can enter multiple fields like that with no experience and come out with an expanded resume. So is Korea still offering these kinds of opportunities? |
So.. illegal work then, right? |
Ok, so the point of this thread isn't supposed to be about fingering illegal vs legal work, rather just what is still possible in SK these days. It may be useful for posters to disclose work that is not visa legit (so that readers do not get a false impression of what is aloud and end up in trouble), but there are tons of things that are 'illegal' for foreigners to do in SK that you can get around just fine (don't want to get into a discussion on that topic within this thread though).
If you consider yourself to be on higher moral ground then by all means stick to the rules, but please let the rest of us discuss what is feasible both within the rules and otherwise. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 8:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Axedall wrote: |
If you consider yourself to be on higher moral ground then by all means stick to the rules, but please let the rest of us discuss what is feasible both within the rules and otherwise. |
..so you mean, you are open to extortion, blackmail, drug and gun running, or perhaps kidnapping and holding folks for ransom? I mean, if you seriously want to discuss illegal ways to earn money, then I suppose that is fine, but wouldn't it really be best to stick to what is allowed by law?  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adam Carolla
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 12:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| thegadfly wrote: |
| Axedall wrote: |
If you consider yourself to be on higher moral ground then by all means stick to the rules, but please let the rest of us discuss what is feasible both within the rules and otherwise. |
..so you mean, you are open to extortion, blackmail, drug and gun running, or perhaps kidnapping and holding folks for ransom? I mean, if you seriously want to discuss illegal ways to earn money, then I suppose that is fine, but wouldn't it really be best to stick to what is allowed by law? |
Because....all those things are the moral equivalent of teaching right?
Also, for all of you who have this holier-than-thou attitude and are so vociferously against illegal teaching, because it's', you know, "against the law", are you also outspoken against plumbers and carpenters who do work for cash? Do you go out of your way to point out to them that taking money under the table is illegal? Do you equate them with drug dealers and kidnappers?
Because the "crime" you're so outraged by is essentially victimless. Yes, the government is missing out on a negligible amount of tax income. (Something they could easily fix by legalizing private lessons.)
But aside from that, who's the victim of this crime that's being compared to kidnapping and drug dealing?
Really, if you want to compare illegal teaching to a crime, compare it to speeding. Have any of you on your high horses ever surpassed the speed limit? Oh you have??? Oh my God, it's ILLEGAL!!! ILLEGAL!!!!!
The bottom line, teaching private lessons is illegal. If you're caught, you'll be punished. There are no victims. It's a straight up risk/reward situation, and morality doesn't really come into it at all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joe Boxer
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Location: Bundang, South Korea
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 2:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Adam Carolla wrote: |
Because the "crime" you're so outraged by is essentially victimless. Yes, the government is missing out on a negligible amount of tax income. (Something they could easily fix by legalizing private lessons.)
There are no victims. It's a straight up risk/reward situation, and morality doesn't really come into it at all. |
Well to be fair, the hagwon owners are "victims", as you may be denying them tuition from students. Also, you may be taking $ from legit F-visa holders. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 3:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Because the "crime" you're so outraged by is essentially victimless. Yes, the government is missing out on a negligible amount of tax income. (Something they could easily fix by legalizing private lessons.)
|
Tax fraud is never a victimless crime as, if all those working illegally were paying taxes, those working legally would be able to pay less. 'The government' is not missing out on alarge amount of tax income, the public are as well as the money would be spent on better services. Now you may retort by saying you don't want your taxes going to support the military or lazy people but that's the price you pay for democracy. We can't pick and choose the services we want because they happen to benefit us at a particular time. You might argue that one or two private lessons in your own apartment for cash doesn't harm anyone but people on here are talking about making 5 million a month, around half of which would not be taxed, which is a sizeable chunk. Also, what makes you think the government would 'easily fix' the problem of loosing an amount of tax income by legalising private lessons? Surely those people fiddling the system now would continue to do so under any new change in law?
Of course teaching illegally is not on a par with kidnaping, drug smuggling and the like but they are all ways of making money illegally so many people don't see the point oif discussing them on here. Personally I, like many others I expect, get annoyed when I hear about people fiddling the system, not because of any morality issue, but because they are indirectly stealing money from the government and therefore all of us. When they discuss it openly on here they are subtlely corrupting the general mindset, by persuading people to think they're not doing anything wrong. If you must work illegally, keep it to yourself and don't try and convince anyone else it's the right thing to do. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adam Carolla
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Personally I, like many others I expect, get annoyed when I hear about people fiddling the system, not because of any morality issue, but because they are indirectly stealing money from the government and therefore all of us. When they discuss it openly on here they are subtlely corrupting the general mindset, by persuading people to think they're not doing anything wrong. If you must work illegally, keep it to yourself and don't try and convince anyone else it's the right thing to do. |
Do you get equally annoyed when carpenters and plumbers do cash work? Because that is also an illegal way to get money and isn't taxed either. Honestly, in the grand scheme of things, I would bet my house that the unpaid taxes from illegal English lessons (by foreigners) is a drop in the bucket compared the amount of tax fraud that goes on every day in Korea.
Do you get annoyed when English teachers give FREE English lessons? Because that's illegal too. And the taxpayers aren't losing out on ANYTHING.
No, I personally suspect that most people who are vehemently against teaching private lessons haven't progressed beyond the "illegal=immoral" mindset.
| Quote: |
| Also, what makes you think the government would 'easily fix' the problem of loosing an amount of tax income by legalising private lessons? |
Well, it's pretty simple. Risk vs. reward. As it is right now, the risk is pretty minimal (chances of being caught are almost nonexistent if you aren't flamboyant about what you're doing,) and the reward is pretty substantial.) If the government really wanted to collect that tax money all they have to do is raise the risk factor substantially, either through stricter enforcement, stricter punishment, or simply by taxing so little and making registration of private tutors so simple that you'd be an idiot NOT to legalize yourself.
But, as I said before, most people equate this with a morality issue. It's not. Some laws are just plain stupid and this happens to be one of them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
noky
Joined: 14 Jul 2010
Location: Yeongcheon
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
Also, what makes you think the government would 'easily fix' the problem of loosing an amount of tax income by legalising private lessons? Surely those people fiddling the system now would continue to do so under any new change in law?
|
I'm sure a lot more people would have little problem reporting their income from private tutoring if it was legalized. The primary victims are the hagwon owners that are being protected from competition in a market with a low-barrier of entry. It's par for the course with Korean economic policies of protectionism. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Do you get equally annoyed when carpenters and plumbers do cash work? |
Probably not equally annoyed no, because I'm not a carpenter or plumber. But if they started talking about it openly as if it was ok, I might give my opinion that it wasn't ok. It also depends on the extent of their fraud. If they worked full time and never declared a penny I'd be pretty annoyed yes. If I was a carpenter or plumber who was working legally and making less money for the same amount of work, I would get very annoyed. And it's not a moral thing at all. Personally I think smoking dope is fine and doesn't hurt anyone else and it should be legalised etc... but I think it's wrong for people to make huge amounts of undeclared income from illegal dope factories in their houses. We're not talking about small sums in teaching necessarily either. There was a guy on here boasting about making nearly 4 million in undeclared earnings, which is more than most people earn in a month. Wouldn't you be annoyed if you knew about people earning entire salaries and not paying a penny on tax? When you were?
| Quote: |
I would bet my house that the unpaid taxes from illegal English lessons (by foreigners) is a drop in the bucket compared the amount of tax fraud that goes on every day in Korea.
|
This excuse is as old as the hills and is used all the time to justify anything from shoplifting from big department stores, lying about benefit claims and even burglary from rich people's houses. 'My crime is so small compared to 'serious' criminals etc'... It doesn't wash and never has.
| Quote: |
| I'm sure a lot more people would have little problem reporting their income from private tutoring if it was legalized |
I'm not |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adam Carolla
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 9:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| This excuse is as old as the hills and is used all the time to justify anything from shoplifting from big department stores, lying about benefit claims and even burglary from rich people's houses. 'My crime is so small compared to 'serious' criminals etc'... It doesn't wash and never has. |
Well, you clearly missed the point of this completely. The point was: IF your reason for being upset by illegal teaching is tax fraud, then it stands to reason you should be much more upset by people and industries that commit tax fraud on a much higher scale.
Once again, if tax fraud is your objection, there are much bigger offenders than the tiny amount of the overall population who teach privates illegally. It's burning calories over what is essentially a non-issue. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Axedall
Joined: 06 Nov 2008
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 10:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Some minor corrections in an attempt to get things back on topic...
[quote="edwardcatflap"]
| Quote: |
... but I think it's wrong for people to make huge amounts of undeclared income from illegal dope factories in their houses. We're not talking about small sums in teaching necessarily either. There was a guy on here boasting about making nearly 4 million in undeclared earnings, which is more than most people earn in a month. Wouldn't you be annoyed if you knew about people earning entire salaries and not paying a penny on tax? When you were?
|
The 4.0 base salary i referred to was tax paid and completely legit, as was the 1.0 or so I made from the university. I did do other 'illegal' work, however, the point of this thread isn't if it was illegal or not, the severity of illegalness, or who loses out. I don't know if the university was doing something illegal or if there are sub laws that allow that kind of stuff. I do know that the company I was working at 'legally' was actually doing (minor) illegal things and me as well by proxy. The point is I'm not interested in discussing the intricacies of legal or moral issues in this thread. I'm only interested in what interesting work people are able to find these days and what experience people are managing to get aside from at their hawgwon.
If you are working for 2.0 at a hawgwon and doing nothing else then you are welcome to contribute that information, but please refrain from criticizing what others are doing. Most Koreans, major companies such as Samsung, and even the government are more than happy to compromise these laws that are only sporadically applied if they see that there is something to gain from you. A discussion on this topic would be interesting, but please confine such discussion to an appropriate thread. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 10:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Well, you clearly missed the point of this completely. The point was: IF your reason for being upset by illegal teaching is tax fraud, then it stands to reason you should be much more upset by people and industries that commit tax fraud on a much higher scale. |
That doesn't follow at all. It's like saying you should be more upset about thirty people dying in a suicide bomb attack in Pakistan than someone you know having a minor traffic accident on the way home from work. The fact is, we are more moved/upset/annoyed by the things closest to us, it's not a question of severity. Rich people and big industries commiting tax fraud annoy me as well and if they wrote about it on these boards I would also give them a piece of my mind but I'm not likely to bump into them in a bar in Haebanchon for example.
| Quote: |
| If you are working for 2.0 at a hawgwon and doing nothing else then you are welcome to contribute that information, but please refrain from criticizing what others are doing. Most Koreans, major companies such as Samsung, and even the government are more than happy to compromise these laws that are only sporadically applied if they see that there is something to gain from you. A discussion on this topic would be interesting, but please confine such discussion to an appropriate thread |
I wasn't actually referring to you when I mentioned someone boasting about working illegally, it was on another thread. In answer to half your question, it is possible to make extra money here legally and I have done in the following ways. Examining, proof reading, writing syllabi for online and offline courses, teacher training, voice overs, filming for EBS and other organisations and trialing and reviewing new materials. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adam Carolla
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 10:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Well, you clearly missed the point of this completely. The point was: IF your reason for being upset by illegal teaching is tax fraud, then it stands to reason you should be much more upset by people and industries that commit tax fraud on a much higher scale. |
That doesn't follow at all. It's like saying you should be more upset about thirty people dying in a suicide bomb attack in Pakistan than someone you know having a minor traffic accident on the way home from work. The fact is, we are more moved/upset/annoyed by the things closest to us, it's not a question of severity. Rich people and big industries commiting tax fraud annoy me as well and if they wrote about it on these boards I would also give them a piece of my mind but I'm not likely to bump into them in a bar in Haebanchon for example. |
Well, consider this question: which affects your life more? A multi-billion dollar corporation getting bailed out or a guy eating a grape at a supermarket without paying for it. Because in the grand scheme of things, that's how much illegal teaching affects you, i.e. it essentially doesn't. Divide up the millions of won in unpaid taxes, spread it around the 45 million or so people in Korea, and you'd probably end up with maybe a few thousand won that you're paying in extra taxes over the course of the year (and I'm being extremely generous with that number, I really doubt it comes anywhere close to that.)
Now, if that warrants your ire, so be it. Personally, I'll limit my own personal grudges to things that affect me to a much greater extent.
Edit: and just to throw out some numbers. Let's say that 20,000 teachers per year were teaching illegally and that they each owed 2 million in taxes. Well, it sounds like a lot. Something to the tune of 40 billion won. Well, that money, if divided equally among the roughly 45 million people living in Korea comes out to something like 888 won/person per YEAR.
Now, I'm not saying it's ok to commit tax fraud. I'm saying that I personally am not going to get upset about losing a maximum of 900 won out of my hard earned money over the course of a year when there are plenty of larger issues I could be worried about. But that's me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
creeper1
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: Salary changes in South Korea |
|
|
| Axedall wrote: |
I used to teach in Seoul 4 - 5 years ago and was wondering how the working environment for foreign teachers has changed since then, especially considering the huge drop in the value of the WON.
I started teaching science in a quasi-'international' school for 3.0/month but paid my own flight and housing, then moved to a 'consulting' place (cheating kids into US unis) at 4.0/month. I thought this was pretty decent given that posted salaries were in the 2.0 - 2.5 range at the time. You could also easily find work on the side as well. I ended up having a random girl come up to me on the street and ask me to do conversation lessons with her for 40k/h, which consisted of just hanging out in a cafe, and picked up a private group paying about 1.2/month among other odds and ends. It seemed like there were quite a few people making at least 5.0/month.
From what I've seen looking at posting lately though, it doesn't look like the posted salaries have changed at all and seems like regulations have gotten tighter. University jobs used to pay decent and give crazy paid vacations (almost half the year off), but I heard those contracts were changing. So how are things going over there these days? Is it still possible to pull in decent dough? |
- 4 or 5 years ago in Seoul. I guess waygooks weren't as common back then. Now Koreans won't bat an eyelid at you and the chances of one radomly coming up to you in the street and asking you to tutor them is slim. However the right networking can get you rewarding privates.
- the won dropped. It's now recovered. When you say dropped, dropped against what. Yeah it dropped against gold but it didn't drop that much against that toilet paper currency known as the US dollar.
- work on the side is much easier now if you are female. There is much more western females here now than in 2007 when I arrived. And some of them aren't that bad looking either. Also there was Christopher Neil case since you left and that caused a huge problem for the image of male nets.
- Yes regulations are tougher. See my earlier point as to why. Also many waygooks faked their degree certs.
- Salaries are at 2.3 range and should stay that way or go lower. Frankly wonamins only ability is to speak a language. If you have no other skill than that you don't deserve one nickel more.
- Don't like Korea even when you were pulling in over 5 million? Then don't come back since you'll like it a whole lot less when you are only pulling in 3 million. My advice - STAY AT HOME.
You are welcome. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ssuprnova
Joined: 17 Dec 2010
Location: Saigon
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 11:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Joe Boxer wrote: |
Well to be fair, the hagwon owners are "victims", as you may be denying them tuition from students. Also, you may be taking $ from legit F-visa holders. |
Most hilarious thing I've seen on Dave's this week. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Axedall
Joined: 06 Nov 2008
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 11:43 pm Post subject: Re: Salary changes in South Korea |
|
|
| creeper1 wrote: |
- 4 or 5 years ago in Seoul. I guess waygooks weren't as common back then. Now Koreans won't bat an eyelid at you and the chances of one radomly coming up to you in the street and asking you to tutor them is slim. However the right networking can get you rewarding privates.
- the won dropped. It's now recovered. When you say dropped, dropped against what. Yeah it dropped against gold but it didn't drop that much against that toilet paper currency known as the US dollar. |
I never really followed the US dollar, but has still dropped about 30% compared to every other world currency I am interested in (ie. Canada, British pound, Singapore dollar, Australian). I guess the US dollar has also taken a hit but the won is still the worst performing currency in Asia, especially if you go back 5 years. I actually still have money stuck in Korea and have been waiting for a proper recovery, but doesn't look promising!
| creeper1 wrote: |
| - work on the side is much easier now if you are female. There is much more western females here now than in 2007 when I arrived. And some of them aren't that bad looking either. Also there was Christopher Neil case since you left and that caused a huge problem for the image of male nets. |
I remember things moving in that direction even when I was there, especially for girls who could speak decent Korean. Caucasian girls could get spots on this show called something like 'What foreigners think' and pull in some pretty good money. I also remember that it was a rare thing to see even a half decent looking white girl during my time. Unfortunate that the business market has gotten even tougher for guys over there, but at least the view may be a bit better 
| creeper1 wrote: |
- Yes regulations are tougher. See my earlier point as to why. Also many waygooks faked their degree certs.
- Salaries are at 2.3 range and should stay that way or go lower. Frankly wonamins only ability is to speak a language. If you have no other skill than that you don't deserve one nickel more.
- Don't like Korea even when you were pulling in over 5 million? Then don't come back since you'll like it a whole lot less when you are only pulling in 3 million. My advice - STAY AT HOME. |
Haha, advice well taken. I don't think there is anything that could draw me back there, so you aren't in danger of seeing my mug anytime soon. Thanks for the post though - nice to see something on topic. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
