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Dude Love



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:07 pm    Post subject: more on Che Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF4mFsZwf-o

-Interesting how the Cuban diaspora uniformly hates him and fat Fidel but pinkos the world over think they know better.
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nukeday



Joined: 13 May 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Cuban diaspora, but what about the Cuban people?

Oh, I guess they're all brainwashed. Diasporas are always right.


I find it funny that there are more people bring up his name to make fun of t-shirt clad college kids than there are college kids wearing Che tees.

I've never seen someone post up an "I love Che" thread on Dave's, but this is at least the third "Che was a monster and leftists are idiots" thread I've seen.

But have fun fighting your windmills.

Ah, here we are:

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?p=2563865&highlight=#2563865


You must be very bored. Almost as bored as I was to look that up.
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Dude Love



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few years ago I met about a dozen Cubans who'd very recently left the country, around the same time Fidel finally got sick and stepped down from power. EVERY SINGLE ONE wanted him to die or didn't care if he did (not a single one supported him). As for the people there being brainwashed, it's possible since the media isn't free. I guess we can't know exactly what they think because they're forbidden from criticizing the gov't and can go to prison for three years just for criticizing Marxism, a few years ago a man even got two years in prison for begging for food in front of a camera.
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fidel's a bastard, but I think he's been significantly better than the US backed regime that was there prior to his taking power, particularly for the poor. The Cuban diaspora is so disproportionately descended from Cuba's wealthy that I think you need to take anything coming out of that camp with a grain of salt.
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young_clinton



Joined: 09 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

northway wrote:
Fidel's a bastard, but I think he's been significantly better than the US backed regime that was there prior to his taking power, particularly for the poor. The Cuban diaspora is so disproportionately descended from Cuba's wealthy that I think you need to take anything coming out of that camp with a grain of salt.


About the time that Castro came to power things were significantly improving for Cubans. I find it hard to believe that Castro was better than an American backed regime. Just look at the other communist paradises, China, Vietnam that were able to get rid of the Americans.

Che was very abusive and in a lot of cases brutal to the populations that he was trying to liberate.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nukeday wrote:
The Cuban diaspora, but what about the Cuban people?

Oh, I guess they're all brainwashed. Diasporas are always right.


I find it funny that there are more people bring up his name to make fun of t-shirt clad college kids than there are college kids wearing Che tees.

I've never seen someone post up an "I love Che" thread on Dave's, but this is at least the third "Che was a monster and leftists are idiots" thread I've seen.

But have fun fighting your windmills.

Ah, here we are:

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?p=2563865&highlight=#2563865


You must be very bored. Almost as bored as I was to look that up.


The OP is right and you are obnoxious. Che is a vicious authoritarian murderer. You don't need to analyze the relative cases of mainland Cuba versus the emigre Cuban diaspora to come to that uncontroversial conclusion.
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nukeday



Joined: 13 May 2010

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone who picks up a gun and conquers is a murderer. So what?

Nobody is posting topics about other murderous Cold War-era regimes or persons on a regular basis, be they communist or fascist. Nobody is bringing up Pinochet or Marcos, nor is anyone (on these boards) regularly idolizing Che.

These threads are pointless. It's just some weird fetish that certain conservatives have that they want to bait people into defending Che Guevara.

And as northway pointed out, differentiating between the diaspora's and the natives' opinions is significant. That seems obvious.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nukeday wrote:
Everyone who picks up a gun and conquers is a murderer. So what?

Nobody is posting topics about other murderous Cold War-era regimes or persons on a regular basis, be they communist or fascist. Nobody is bringing up Pinochet or Marcos, nor is anyone (on these boards) regularly idolizing Che.


It would've been more appropriate if he had posted this in the CE forum. But on the CE boards we don't cry if someone has an interest in a topic and presents the topic more often than others (with the prominent exception of a certain deviant). You are not a moderator on this forum, so why make a spectacle of yourself?

As for Pinochet, I just posted this thread about an investigation into Allende's cause of death: (http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=206663). So you're absolutely wrong that people don't care about this stuff on these boards.

In Che's case, he is more than just a would-be conqueror. He is a revolutionary for a vile left-wing authoritarian dystopian order. Communism and fascism are ugly, disgusting systems. It is appropriate for people to bring awareness to this.
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nukeday



Joined: 13 May 2010

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not a moderator, but it is still boring, and as you mentioned, off off-topic. I steer clear of the wingnuts on the CE forum for a reason.

Anyway, I don't think it's necessary to raise awareness. The Cold War is over.

I still think it's barking at an empty room. Nobody is going to come to the defense of Che Guevara, not even the "pinkos." We're not in high school.
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Dude Love



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:53 am    Post subject: reply Reply with quote

"Nobody is posting topics about other murderous Cold War-era regimes or persons on a regular basis, be they communist or fascist. Nobody is bringing up Pinochet or Marcos."
-That's because you don't see idiots wearing their t-shirts and making heroes of them (except for Mao, who killed ten times as many people as Hitler). Luckily I've only seen two Che t-shirts so far this year. I think I told both people Che was a communist who'd killed thousands of people and they seemed not to know (shocker!).
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mao t-shirts? I know he is still revered in China but haven't seen any Mao t-shirts in the west.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a bar in Beijing called "A-Che," when I was there they used to sell up the Che Guevera aspect more but they've toned it down some. I find Che idolization truly obnoxious, no matter how few people do it.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

young_clinton wrote:
About the time that Castro came to power things were significantly improving for Cubans. I find it hard to believe that Castro was better than an American backed regime. Just look at the other communist paradises, China, Vietnam that were able to get rid of the Americans.


Well literacy shot up in Cuba after Castro took over. It has one of the highest rates of literacy in the Wetern Hemisphere. Cubans also have (or had, not sure now) a longer life expectancy than Americans.

I'd say those are two signs that Castro was better than an American backed regime. I'm not sure why you're bringing up Vietnam and China since they've quickly developed during the last 20-30 years.
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young_clinton



Joined: 09 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:

Well literacy shot up in Cuba after Castro took over. It has one of the highest rates of literacy in the Wetern Hemisphere. Cubans also have (or had, not sure now) a longer life expectancy than Americans.

I'd say those are two signs that Castro was better than an American backed regime. I'm not sure why you're bringing up Vietnam and China since they've quickly developed during the last 20-30 years.


American life expectancy is held down because of the huge number of cigarette smokers in the USA. It's difficult to compare China and Vietnam to other countries. China is too big and Vietnam is in SE Asia which is totally messed up period. Needless to say though the two countries opening up to capitalism has improved the countries greatly, however there is a huge amount of corruption in getting necessary services to the poor in those countries, there is no safety net whatsoever in some areas of those countries.
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ED209



Joined: 17 Oct 2006

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
American life expectancy is held down because of the huge number of cigarette smokers in the USA.


I thought it was more down to diet. America is quite low on the list of smokers. I feel that countries like Cuba simply can't afford what it takes to get heart disease and diabetes before you're twenty.

Cuba is different in so many ways to China I just can't begin to compare them. And Chinese capitalism has had negative effects too. Cuba still needs to move away from Castro's legacy, I just hope it doesn't end up like Haiti.
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