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SWAT Team Raids Man�s Home Over Student Loans
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bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:57 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

bucheon bum wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

visitorq wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

Ahhhh Dave's, where a Hagwon owner who doesn't pay according to their contract is a criminal, but a student-loaner who doesn't pay according to their contract is a victim.

As far as I can tell intentionally not paying back a student loan is tantamount to fraud, in some cases of over 100,000 dollars. Certainly worth a "takedown" by the boys in blue.

If someone defrauded you of 100,000 you certainly wouldn't mind them getting a nice cop slam and rough handcuffing.

I kinda hope you get a nice cop slam and rough handcuffing someday for no good reason (or maybe for a reason that might warrant it in some peoples' eyes, such as not paying back a parking ticket on time? ie. "tantamount to fraud" Rolling Eyes

). Then you can get back to us afterward and let us know if you still feel the same way.

Dude you're comparing a parking ticket, which is say 100 bucks, to defrauding someone of 25-100 thousand dollars?

I'm sorry but if I loaned someone 25 grand, and instead of paying me back they sat around, shot out kids, and smoked a bunch of pot, then yeah, they are asking for a slam.

So its wrong to rip 25,000 off from a friend but its okay to do it to a lending institution?

How would you react if I conned you out of 25 large?

That's a perfectly good reason for a cop slam.

And yes you can make the payments, stop toking up and drinking a 30 case and get a 2nd job.

Anyone still wondering how the USA has become a police state?

Justifying over the top police actions. :sigh: I wish steelrails was unique in his vewpoint, but sadly it is pretty common.

Ever wonder how the U.S. got into massive debt problems and borrows more than it saves?

If you willfully skip on your loan payments I think that that is fraud. You signed a contract with specified payment measures. If you are willfully avoiding payment (and especially if you are drinking beer, smoking dope, and buying new XBox games) then you are committing fraud.

This isn't police state, this is someone ripping off 25-100,000 dollars. If any of us had that kind of dough ripped off we would certainly see no harm in body slamming the person who stole it to the ground.

You guys certainly wish that your cheating hogwon boss could be slammed and cuffed away. Good, he should. But by that same standard the person who signed a college loan and refuses to make payments on it deserves the same treatment.

As zyzyfer has pointed out twice on this thread, we are not defending the accused dead beat. Repeat: we are NOT DEFENDING THE DEADBEAT.

We are arguing that this action was over the top and unnecessary. All they had to do was send some cops with a search warrant and go search the house. Got it?

visitorq

Joined: 11 Jan 2008

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:52 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

visitorq wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

). Then you can get back to us afterward and let us know if you still feel the same way.

It wasn't even that guy's debt Rolling Eyes

nor do you have any proof that it was fraud. Basically you are completely full of crap, saying that outstanding debt warrants violent assault; the only thing warranting a violent response is self defense. The fact that you are defending the above case at all is quite despicable to say the least...

Again, your misplaced sense of justice won't amount to jack once you find yourself being choke slammed by some disgusting cop on a power trip shouting in your face like you're an animal. Maybe for not paying your taxes on time? Or for spitting some chewing gum out on the street? The exact same principle applies.

northway

Joined: 05 Jul 2010

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:06 am Post subject:

jodemas2 wrote:

northway wrote:

jodemas2 wrote:

Did you notice I asked that very (rhetorical) question just a few posts up?

Page break/read the first page previously.

If YOU would read the previous page, you'd know I've been here from the beginning so I've read everything. Don't play games; just say what you want to say instead of me re-reading an entire page and then trying to guess what it is that you want me to notice.

I was saying that I had read the first page on a previous visit to the thread, and thus didn't recall you asking the question. Sorry, I'm not that great on keeping track of who said what when I keep coming back to a thread.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:41 am Post subject:

visitorq wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

visitorq wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

). Then you can get back to us afterward and let us know if you still feel the same way.

It wasn't even that guy's debt Rolling Eyes

Well, I for one believe that if I loaned 25 large to someone and they failed to pay then yeah, sterner measures have to be used.

But hey, care to loan me 25 grand? I'll get around to paying back whenever I feel like it. Feel free to send me a strongly worded letter and go through the legal process in an attempt to get it back.

I mean, isn't there a contradiction involved? If one isn't supposed to use violence, but instead go through the legal process, how can that work when that legal process is a tool of the police state?

I have no problem with the state using the same measures that I myself would use in an attempt to recover a large sum of money that someone failed to repay.

ontheway

Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:48 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

This sounds like you would send in Sonny and Bruno, to ya know, first just push 'em around a bit, then if he don' pay, ya know, accidentally like, knock over a few things, bust the place up a bit and then, ya know, if he still don' pay, break his thumbs a bit ...

But, in a peaceful, civil society, the government should not be a lender at all.

Individuals who choose to take the risk (primarily banks and lending institutions, but also private personal lenders) should evaluate the credit risk of those individuals and businesses seeking to borrow funds, and lend to them under contracts, conditions and terms that both parties agree to, under a written or oral contract as suits the parties and situation.

Then, if the borrower cannot or refuses to pay, the lender can seek payment and damages only under the peaceful rules established under the civil society. Raids by SWAT teams or threats from Sonny and Bruno are not permitted. Violence is not permitted.

Of course, this means that in some cases principle, interest and damages will not be recoverable. But, that is one of the conditions under which lenders are required to operate and which should be taken into account when making a loan.

Any lender (including any person or group that is part of the government) operating as suggested above, using violence to collect outstanding amounts, should be arrested, tried and imprisoned to a degree appropriate for the illegal acts of violence employed.

No individual who is affected at a personal and emotional level should undertake to participate in the economic marketplace as a lender. A lender must use statistical tools to evaluate risk, compute expected loss levels, make businesslike judgements as to who is creditworthy, and after pursuing legal, nonviolent means of collection, write off any uncollecable losses.

The role of government is to provide a stable social and legal framework to deter and punish violence from within and to defend against violence from abroad - and nothing else.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject:

ontheway wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

So, how exactly do you get the deadbeat into court? Ask them politely? Issue a summons? In fantasy land this may work, but in the real world you need to arrest them. And often when people are being arrested they resist or even become violent themselves.

You do realize that there are people out there that don't give two hoots about a court summons or anything and force is all they understand.

I for one think violence to recover large sums of money or to prevent the taking of large sums of money is perfectly fine. I enjoy the fact that there is a government out there that will throw people in jail for failing to repay large sums of money and defrauding people of their hard-earned livelihoods. I think that that is what enables a peaceful civil society. If people are free to rip off money and have no fear of arrest then what's to prevent anarchy?

You put everything on the lender's shoulders. How about putting more on the debtor's shoulders? Just as the lender has a responsibility to examine the debtor, so too does the debtor have a responsibility to examine if they can make the payments and to live up to their end of the bargain. The debtor signed a contract. They should be legally hammered into submission if they fail to make an effort to pay.

You say that the primary function of government is deter violence, presumably you would agree that using force to stop armed robberies is fine. Well then why is it so wrong to use force with defrauders? Because they use a silver tongue instead of a gun?

I would submit that another role of the government is to ensure the safe transaction of commerce and to prevent financial crime and to punish the offenders.

Does this mean someone should be dragged out at gunpoint for a $500 phone bill? Absolutely not. That is the time for write-offs. But if you're ripping off 5 digit sums of money well that's something else.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:47 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

The debtor signed a contract. They should be legally hammered into submission if they fail to make an effort to pay.

That person signed a contract to pay a debt. He didn't authorize the use of grossly disproportionate force to collect that debt. What he may have authorized is the creditor's ability to inform other potential creditors that the debtor was unable to pay his obligations, and thus he should not be allowed to borrow further.

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:44 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Well, I for one believe that if I loaned 25 large to someone and they failed to pay then yeah, sterner measures have to be used.

Including (legal?) violence?

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:38 pm Post subject:

Captain Corea wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

Well, I for one believe that if I loaned 25 large to someone and they failed to pay then yeah, sterner measures have to be used.

Including (legal?) violence?

Nothing he's talking about is actually legal, at least regarding someone who has failed to repay their student loans (which as I've stated up thread, is distinct from a criminal student loan fraud enterprise). If there's only a failure to repay, the liability is civil, not criminal. You just will not have a SWAT team enforce a loan obligation to a private party. There will be a summons filed, and either a case or more likely a default judgment. And then the sheriff will be called upon to enforce the judgment.

Steelrails is just developing his authoritarian fantasies.

visitorq

Joined: 11 Jan 2008

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

The debtor signed a contract. They should be legally hammered into submission if they fail to make an effort to pay.

That person signed a contract to pay a debt. He didn't authorize the use of grossly disproportionate force to collect that debt.

Exactly. Steelrails is just spewing a whole lot of bull crap, which is very plain to see. In the first place, someone not repaying their loan on time does not automatically amount to fraud (since the lender is still receiving interest on the debt)... Fraud denotes a deliberate, usually premeditated swindle (basically theft), not an unintentional inability to repay the loan after the fact.

In any case, regardless of whether it was actually fraud or not, it does not justify sending in a SWAT team. It is possible and quite easy to arrest people peacefully without damaging their property or their person. SWAT teams are for gangsters or other violent criminals, not for regular people who pose no physical threat (such as Joe Blow living in suburbia with his two kids)...

sirius black

Joined: 04 Jun 2010

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:53 pm Post subject:

There is also the matter of equal applicaton of law enforcement. The reason why this is news is because its NOT commonly done for this specific offense. Law enforcement typically uses SWAT when there is a reasonable expectation of violence from the suspect or person of interest. If someone can tell me the reasonable expectation I'd love to hear it. Why isn't SWAT iused in the same manner for EVERY search? Bottom line is that its misusing resources and an overuse of force. Its nothing two or three officers couldn't carryout. Those SWAT members were better utilized serving violent suspects. Furthermore its not like this was 30 or 40 years ago when one could hide in society and not get caught. The technological advances of today makes it nigh on impossible to hide in the U.S. without leaving an electronic trail or clue to your identity. You could buy plane tickets, etc. with cash in the old days. Try getting a room at the Hilton with cash. Try getting on a plane with just the ticket. Both of these were possible 30 years ago. Not today.

Zyzyfer

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:04 pm Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

The debtor signed a contract. They should be legally hammered into submission if they fail to make an effort to pay.

+1

Debtors ARE legally hammered into submission. Fail to pay back loans granted by either the government or banking institutions, or even simply fail to pay utilities and other bills in your name, and your credit rating drops like a rock.

No cars on payment plans.

No homes on payment plans.

No ability to obtain credit cards.

No ability to obtain a loan.

Oh, but of course you can always, you know, just declare bankruptcy and get a clean slate. It's just a slick seven-year wait, and then you're good to go, ready to pillage society once more like a locust. Oh, wait. You've spent 7 years without any sort of credit record. Hmm.

sirius black wrote:

You could buy plane tickets, etc. with cash in the old days. Try getting a room at the Hilton with cash. Try getting on a plane with just the ticket. Both of these were possible 30 years ago. Not today.

+1 again. I was fortunate to have my grandmother drill incessantly into my brain how vital credit unfortunately is today.

Steelrails, you seem to have some idea that deadbeats just default on everything and get off scot-free. That's the most ridiculous notion I've eveer heard. If you think living hand-to-mouth in the local ghetto trailer park, getting utilities in the names of concerned family members while you piss your life away in a bottle or bong is living the good life, I suggest you reassess your view on the matter.

Zyzyfer

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:18 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

You do realize that there are people out there that don't give two hoots about a court summons or anything and force is all they understand.

Why on earth would anyone loan money to a deadbeat? I think student loans are one of the only loans you can get in good faith. Everything else is locked into your credit score and credit history.

Quote:

I for one think violence to recover large sums of money or to prevent the taking of large sums of money is perfectly fine.

.....

Does this mean someone should be dragged out at gunpoint for a $500 phone bill? Absolutely not. That is the time for write-offs. But if you're ripping off 5 digit sums of money well that's something else.

Using violence to collect money...lol

I'm intrigued by how you keep trying to take it down to a personal level. As in, you loan me money and I don't pay it back.

First of all, that's a ridiculous notion. Why would anyone personally loan anyone else $25,000? I felt bad the few times I had to accept a couple of grand in personal loans because money conflicts will decimate a relationship.

Secondly, say the idea is plausible. And let's say I am an upstanding citizen, pay my bills on time, work hard. You'd feel a bit more comfortable loaning to someone like that than that guy whose home is constantly emenating the scent of green and can barely hold a job at the local bar as a chef.

Financial institutions work the same way with screening processes. And they also charge interest to boot, letting you pay them money for the privilege of obtaining an otherwise unobtainable (at that moment) collection of funds.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Yes, if someone fails to pay, your stuff can get repossessed. And if you try to physically stop people from repossessing your stuff, they are within their rights to resist your resisting.

If you become belligerent about it the police may become involved.

All of this is avoided of course, by A) Not signing loans you can't afford, and B) Paying on time and C)Not resisting the police or repo men.

Quote:

Fraud denotes a deliberate, usually premeditated swindle (basically theft), not an unintentional inability to repay the loan after the fact.

I would submit that fraud need not be premeditated in the case of loans, but can also arise during the loan repayment process. If you at some point choose to actively disregard paying for the loans, then yes, you are defrauding the company.

Quote:

Why on earth would anyone loan money to a deadbeat? I think student loans are one of the only loans you can get in good faith. Everything else is locked into your credit score and credit history.

Not everyone who decides to defraud on a loan is an obvious deadbeat.

Sometimes Law enforcement can go overboard, but at the same time sometimes people can be deadbeats. Either hold law enforcement AND people to strict standards of behavior or neither. Your law enforcement should reflect the values of your society.

But think carefully about embracing a society that has a very casual attitude to debt and financial crime.

shifter2009

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Location: wisconsin

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:36 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

Fraud denotes a deliberate, usually premeditated swindle (basically theft), not an unintentional inability to repay the loan after the fact.

Quote:

Why on earth would anyone loan money to a deadbeat? I think student loans are one of the only loans you can get in good faith. Everything else is locked into your credit score and credit history.

I used to think you were a pretty level headed guy but lately you have been weirding me out with some of your stances. This is a story about a guy who had NO debt getting his door kid by a SWAT team. Yeah, they thought someone who had an outstanding debt was there but you know what would have been a good way to handle the situation? Knocking and THEN searching. You got fifteen cops available but you got no one to watch the back door to make sure no one bolts while someone knocks on the front door? Your looking for someone defaulting on their student loans, not Al Capone. Even if you think we are too soft on debtors you can't really believe this is the appropriate response. The whole situation is retarded

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