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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Sure, lifespans are increasing... but are retirement ages? I mean, if people are partying like it's 1999 in all of their 20's, who is going to pay for it? Their parents? Themselves? Society? Should we now extend retirement age to 70+ because the youth of today prefer to hang out?
As well, I worry about the biological limits attached to all of this. If marriage is put off until later in life... how will kids factor in? Pretty sure that one of the reasons Korea has a declining birthrate is related to delaying marriage. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
Sure, lifespans are increasing... but are retirement ages? I mean, if people are partying like it's 1999 in all of their 20's, who is going to pay for it? Their parents? Themselves? Society? Should we now extend retirement age to 70+ because the youth of today prefer to hang out?
As well, I worry about the biological limits attached to all of this. If marriage is put off until later in life... how will kids factor in? Pretty sure that one of the reasons Korea has a declining birthrate is related to delaying marriage. |
IMO, the 20-something partier would need to fund themselves unless they're lucky enough to live in a generous welfare state or have rich parents funding them.
I mean, unless you have family fully supporting you then you will have to get a temporary or part time job to support any kind of fun lifestyle in your 20's.
Even the most generous of welfare states these days do not give enough to support a party lifestyle. A single young person living purely on benefits in the UK these days would have a very austere existence. Barely enough for beans on toast and a pint or two at the weekend.
I'm all for voluntary retirement. Everybody is different. If they can keep passing the medical for their type of work then they should be able to work as late into life as they like.
The declining birth rates is a problem but I don't think there's anything that can be done. If people want to get married later and have maybe just one, or no children, then I don't think we can tell them not to!!
Think about it though, if most people live longer and are able to work later into life, then the declining birth rate will be less of an issue. The elderly will be able to take care of themselves for longer........plus, if I end up working and paying taxes for 60 years of my life, then I'd better damn well get something back from the government when I eventually retire!! |
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rainism
Joined: 13 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not asking anyone to pay for my single lifestyle. That's where the part about taking responsibility for yourself and your actions comes in.
I'm also not putting down anyone who wants to domesticate, get married, etc at whatever age they choose to do it, even if very young.
What I take exception to is being told what I should do with MY life.
(and steelrails, "consuming" is where having a family comes in, all they effing do is consume, consume and consume, you're the worker ant that pays for all that consumption until next thing you know you're 55 and your next 20 years are spent waiting to die, though these days they'll be spent by your working till you're 75 just to have enough money for any retirement you may get after having been bled completely dry by your family)
now that I think about it, when I think of all my extended ring of expat acquaintances, the overwhelming majority of them are committed bachelors. The reason for this is easy. They have real jobs that pay them extremely well by local standards around the world and they're having way too much fun sowing their oats and never lack for hot female companionship. They're obviously in their 30's and 40's, some even older. I've met committed retiree bachelors. I'm the stupid exception being a poor ESL teacher sowing nothing in Korea. (all of them live in much more "fun" countries)
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minos
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Location: kOREA
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| rainism wrote: |
| (and steelrails, "consuming" is where having a family comes in, all they effing do is consume, consume and consume, you're the worker ant that pays for all that consumption until next thing you know you're 55 and your next 20 years are spent waiting to die, though these days they'll be spent by your working till you're 75 just to have enough money for any retirement you may get after having been bled completely dry by your family) |
You have, IMO, a very distorted view of having/raising a family. I'm guessing that you don't have kids, right?
Let me ask you though; what would happen to society without people having families and kids?
| eamo wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
Sure, lifespans are increasing... but are retirement ages? I mean, if people are partying like it's 1999 in all of their 20's, who is going to pay for it? Their parents? Themselves? Society? Should we now extend retirement age to 70+ because the youth of today prefer to hang out?
As well, I worry about the biological limits attached to all of this. If marriage is put off until later in life... how will kids factor in? Pretty sure that one of the reasons Korea has a declining birthrate is related to delaying marriage. |
IMO, the 20-something partier would need to fund themselves unless they're lucky enough to live in a generous welfare state or have rich parents funding them. |
Ooorrr.. are camping out at their parents' place. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
You have, IMO, a very distorted view of having/raising a family. I'm guessing that you don't have kids, right?
Let me ask you though; what would happen to society without people having families and kids? |
I wouldn't say rainism put it perfectly, but raising a child has gotten expensive. My Korean friend has two young children and was venting to me recently that his son is practically eating him out of house and home. He said he was unable to really put away any significant money despite slaving away at his job, receiving regular promotions, etc. The guy was massively excited to get married and have his two children, but I can see how it could become a strain on him, no matter how elated he is.
A friend back home in the States also had two children and his wife put him on a $25 a week allowance - for everything. While I can look back now and see the sensibility in this, he was a few years older than the rest of us (late 20s to our early 20s) and at the time, we found it annoying because we couldn't hang out. Naturally, we thought his wife was the daughter of Satan at the time.
Societies with declining birth rates will see a drop in population, but it's not like they will come to a grinding halt and cease to exist. Considering the intense amount of resources such countries consume, it's almost a necessity to achieve homeostatis within the population. |
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rainism
Joined: 13 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
You have, IMO, a very distorted view of having/raising a family. I'm guessing that you don't have kids, right?
Let me ask you though; what would happen to society without people having families and kids? |
well I was distorting and being overdramatic to make a point which is Zyzifer's (it's gotten preposterously expensive) and I simply am not willing to make a commitment (not yet anyways) to play worker ant for 25 years. I have no doubt raising a family has its own joys and rewards and I highly applaud those that want to do it. If the financial burden wasn't so onerous, I'd like to have a large family as a matter of fact. However, as any parent, I'd like my kids to get a chance at the best education, etc and this all costs tons and tons of money, especially today.
I'm not willing to become a slave to money and any job/career in order to facilitate this.
as to your 2nd question, well society would age and die and people would disappear. However, we're not quite in any real danger of this happening these days, are we now? Ergo, I feel no special obligation to the human race, much less any country to produce more Koreans, Americans, etc.
if you seriously want me to do so, let's talk more incentives, and I don't mean something seriously insufficient like a 1000 dollar a year tax break, etc. Let's talk child care and especially let's talk about cost of education.
minos in my large American metropolis, it was fairly rare in my educational/social circles to find a married guy even in his late 20s. Less women than you might think too. Usually happened early to mid 30's, especially for guys. |
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gem
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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One of my coteachers is divorced and its like he has leprosy. The other teachers shun him. I feel for this dude. He's a good guy but a bit arrogant because he has to overcompensate for his "failure" as a husband and a father. I could not care less.
Another one of my coteachers is pushing spinster age (for a Korean girl, age 30) and incredibly smart and gorgeous (no surgeries) and I have told her to take her next vacation to Miami beach. Wear only bikinis and tan a little (no need to fear the sun in America) and you'll meet the rich Jewish attorney of your dreams. She could do it! |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| gem wrote: |
| One of my coteachers is divorced and its like he has leprosy. The other teachers shun him. I feel for this dude. He's a good guy but a bit arrogant because he has to overcompensate for his "failure" as a husband and a father. I could not care less. |
Really? In my school there are several male and female teachers that are divorced, and they aren't shunned. And I work in a private Christan school out in the provinces. Strangely enough our newly appoint VP doesn't even attend church and has makes it known that he doesn't believe in any religion. Apparently our priest principal is a pretty progressive guy and choose the best person for the VP job. |
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rainism
Joined: 13 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
You have, IMO, a very distorted view of having/raising a family. I'm guessing that you don't have kids, right?
Let me ask you though; what would happen to society without people having families and kids? |
I wouldn't say rainism put it perfectly, but raising a child has gotten expensive. My Korean friend has two young children and was venting to me recently that his son is practically eating him out of house and home. He said he was unable to really put away any significant money despite slaving away at his job, receiving regular promotions, etc. The guy was massively excited to get married and have his two children, but I can see how it could become a strain on him, no matter how elated he is.
A friend back home in the States also had two children and his wife put him on a $25 a week allowance - for everything. While I can look back now and see the sensibility in this, he was a few years older than the rest of us (late 20s to our early 20s) and at the time, we found it annoying because we couldn't hang out. Naturally, we thought his wife was the daughter of Satan at the time.
Societies with declining birth rates will see a drop in population, but it's not like they will come to a grinding halt and cease to exist. Considering the intense amount of resources such countries consume, it's almost a necessity to achieve homeostatis within the population. |
now let's add to this ideal job situation a more typical job situation. Creative destruction, downsizing, layoffs etc even in so called economic good times, much less today's times. Consider the amount of stress if you're the primary breadwinner, as the male usually still is and he loses his job and has difficulty finding another that doesn't pay significantly less (that's if that option is available at all)
just doesn't sound that exciting to me.
and yeah.. if people stopped having children, the price of energy and good would not only stabilize, but begin dropping dramatically. Not to mention a reduction in global warming, etc etc etc. |
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rainism
Joined: 13 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
You have, IMO, a very distorted view of having/raising a family. I'm guessing that you don't have kids, right?
Let me ask you though; what would happen to society without people having families and kids? |
I wouldn't say rainism put it perfectly, but raising a child has gotten expensive. My Korean friend has two young children and was venting to me recently that his son is practically eating him out of house and home. He said he was unable to really put away any significant money despite slaving away at his job, receiving regular promotions, etc. The guy was massively excited to get married and have his two children, but I can see how it could become a strain on him, no matter how elated he is.
A friend back home in the States also had two children and his wife put him on a $25 a week allowance - for everything. While I can look back now and see the sensibility in this, he was a few years older than the rest of us (late 20s to our early 20s) and at the time, we found it annoying because we couldn't hang out. Naturally, we thought his wife was the daughter of Satan at the time.
Societies with declining birth rates will see a drop in population, but it's not like they will come to a grinding halt and cease to exist. Considering the intense amount of resources such countries consume, it's almost a necessity to achieve homeostatis within the population. |
now let's add to this ideal job situation a more typical job situation. Creative destruction, downsizing, layoffs etc even in so called economic good times, much less today's times. Consider the amount of stress if you're the primary breadwinner, as the male usually still is and he loses his job and has difficulty finding another that doesn't pay significantly less (that's if that option is available at all)
just doesn't sound that exciting to me.
and yeah.. if people stopped having children, the price of energy and food would not only stabilize, but begin dropping dramatically. Not to mention a reduction in global warming, etc etc etc. |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| �raising a child has gotten expensive. |
Does anyone else find this condition�bizarre? Not to say it isn�t a real problem, but it�s an arbitrary problem we created. Have you guys ever seen the movie Idiocracy? The �smart� people put off having children because it�s not economically feasible, whereas the �idiots� who don�t connect economics with life processes have no trouble populating the Earth.
Or how about Children of Men?
You don�t want to have children? Fine. But I just wonder how fulfilling your career (a fancy word for �job�) and other �meaningful� personal interests will seem when you are old and alone, and you�ve done nothing for anyone but yourself. No one to call you �Mom� or �Dad� much less �Grandma� or Grandpa�. Of course some of us will end up this way anyway. But because of economics? Or worse, because we bought off on the lie that finding our career would give us intrinsic satisfaction in life?
We get on the case of the baby boomer generation because they screwed us over financially, but what good are we doing future generations if we have no progeny (presuming marriage and children are inherently connected �and presuming we aren�t the idiots who are actually doing the world a favor by taking our �intelligent� genes out of the gene pool)? Really advanced and responsible thinking there. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| gem wrote: |
One of my coteachers is divorced and its like he has leprosy. The other teachers shun him. I feel for this dude. He's a good guy but a bit arrogant because he has to overcompensate for his "failure" as a husband and a father. I could not care less.
Another one of my coteachers is pushing spinster age (for a Korean girl, age 30) and incredibly smart and gorgeous (no surgeries) and I have told her to take her next vacation to Miami beach. Wear only bikinis and tan a little (no need to fear the sun in America) and you'll meet the rich Jewish attorney of your dreams. She could do it! |
Why aren't you telling her to marry you instead? Geeze, I gotta smack some sense into some of you guys. Ha ha. |
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rainism
Joined: 13 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| isitts wrote: |
| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| �raising a child has gotten expensive. |
Does anyone else find this condition�bizarre? Not to say it isn�t a real problem, but it�s an arbitrary problem we created. Have you guys ever seen the movie Idiocracy? The �smart� people put off having children because it�s not economically feasible, whereas the �idiots� who don�t connect economics with life processes have no trouble populating the Earth.
Or how about Children of Men?
You don�t want to have children? Fine. But I just wonder how fulfilling your career (a fancy word for �job�) and other �meaningful� personal interests will seem when you are old and alone, and you�ve done nothing for anyone but yourself. No one to call you �Mom� or �Dad� much less �Grandma� or Grandpa�. Of course some of us will end up this way anyway. But because of economics? Or worse, because we bought off on the lie that finding our career would give us intrinsic satisfaction in life?
We get on the case of the baby boomer generation because they screwed us over financially, but what good are we doing future generations if we have no progeny (presuming marriage and children are inherently connected �and presuming we aren�t the idiots who are actually doing the world a favor by taking our �intelligent� genes out of the gene pool)? Really advanced and responsible thinking there. |
I dunno. a lot of these old retirees I've met around the world are never alone. Usually accompanied by young women. I hear single men are in very high demand in retirement homes stateside 
and in today's cyber world and ability to immerse oneself in either social media or gaming, etc you can be as alone or as not alone as you choose.
lastly, as a man, if I really feel THAT alone, I'll have a kid then. Personally, I've felt for a long time that if you're going to have a family, best to do it between 50-75 anyways, putting those years to good use and not wasting one's best years beforehand. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| isitts wrote: |
| You don�t want to have children? Fine. But I just wonder how fulfilling your career (a fancy word for �job�) and other �meaningful� personal interests will seem when you are old and alone, and you�ve done nothing for anyone but yourself. No one to call you �Mom� or �Dad� much less �Grandma� or Grandpa�. Of course some of us will end up this way anyway. But because of economics? Or worse, because we bought off on the lie that finding our career would give us intrinsic satisfaction in life? |
It's also possible you could take all the money you save by not having kids and find some intrinsic satisfaction in the beaches of Thailand. |
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