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Eddy24
Joined: 13 Nov 2010
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:03 am Post subject: |
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I'm from the UK. If I was American, I would vote for Ron Paul. I mean, it's either Obama (more of the same) or one of the other Republican candidates. I like Ron Paul because of the wars issues and i think he is ahead on the curve on a lot of economics. I think he is a positive for the US. EVen if he doesn't get elected I think a lot of his views are gaining legitimacy. He also wants to end the war on drugs. Man ending the wars and the war on drugs would do so much for the world.
People say he's an isolationist. But he's not. He wants to end the wars and foreign aid. But he would talk and trade with any country that wants to. the US currently isolates many countries such as Cuba, IRan etc. He would actually engage with them and negotiatie with them. That's not isolationist, a lto fo the current US policies are. Anti-Americanism is greateer than it's ever been/ Current policy is supposed to force these countries into submission but that doesn't work and won't work short of more war. And we all know the US cannot afford this nor can the rest of the world. |
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jfromtheway
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Eddy24 wrote: |
I'm from the UK. If I was American, I would vote for Ron Paul. I mean, it's either Obama (more of the same) or one of the other Republican candidates. I like Ron Paul because of the wars issues and i think he is ahead on the curve on a lot of economics. I think he is a positive for the US. EVen if he doesn't get elected I think a lot of his views are gaining legitimacy. He also wants to end the war on drugs. Man ending the wars and the war on drugs would do so much for the world.
People say he's an isolationist. But he's not. He wants to end the wars and foreign aid. But he would talk and trade with any country that wants to. the US currently isolates many countries such as Cuba, IRan etc. He would actually engage with them and negotiatie with them. That's not isolationist, a lto fo the current US policies are. Anti-Americanism is greateer than it's ever been/ Current policy is supposed to force these countries into submission but that doesn't work and won't work short of more war. And we all know the US cannot afford this nor can the rest of the world. |
There is a lot going on here. I generally have a problem with non-Americans who try to dissect American politics, as they are usually off-base. Though there seems to be an abundance of unqualified American armchair policy analysts on this site. My soon to be improved upon degree is in IR, so I at least somewhat know what I'm talking about. Saying that Obama offers "more of the same," is a repetitive phrase that gets used for every president. "Ahead of the curve on a lot of economics," is also not a beautiful statement. The candidates who hedge their way to the top on both sides of the aisle, and end up getting nominated or elected, rarely offer the calibrated changes their electors desired.
The fact is this: The economic, legal, and political systems in place would never pass or qualify the changes Ron Paul would attempt to make. Power is not situated that way in the U.S., and the attempted overhaul that would result if he were to be elected would likely not bring about the changes you and others may prefer. You have a point with Cuba, but furthering the isolation of the Iranian political/religious regime is not necessarily a bad thing. Would Paul engage and negotiate more with Iran towards a more healthy, mutually responsible future? Maybe, but I don't know about that, assuming he ever makes it to the office, which he won't. America as a political and economic entity is also not too concerned with a supposed increase in anti-Americanism, as that often has little to do with the political favoritism or market capitalization we enjoy, assuming globalization doesn't backlash against the west in most areas of the world (which it is unlikely to do). We do well with taking our business elsewhere if needed.
I mostly like Ron Paul. Idealistically, he makes a lot of legitimate points. But realistically, it's simply not going to happen. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| jfromtheway wrote: |
| I generally have a problem with non-Americans who try to dissect American politics, as they are usually off-base. Though there seems to be an abundance of unqualified American armchair policy analysts on this site. My soon to be improved upon degree is in IR, so I at least somewhat know what I'm talking about. |
What an obnoxious start. You're more qualified? I have to assume that almost everyone on here is a teacher, and thus they have a bachelor's degree. At least. Thus, they should be qualified enough. I think bucheon bum has a master's degree in Far East Relations (??).
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| The fact is this: The economic, legal, and political systems in place would never pass or qualify the changes Ron Paul would attempt to make. Power is not situated that way in the U.S., and the attempted overhaul that would result if he were to be elected would likely not bring about the changes you and others may prefer. |
What you're saying is that the gov't is captured by corporate and union interests. I think most people who support Ron Paul would agree with that. But if you're going to argue that reform is futile, maybe you should start by arguing why the status quo is worthy of our submission. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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I'm from the UK. If I was American, I would vote for Ron Paul. I mean, it's either Obama (more of the same) or one of the other Republican candidates. I like Ron Paul because of the wars issues and i think he is ahead on the curve on a lot of economics. I think he is a positive for the US. EVen if he doesn't get elected I think a lot of his views are gaining legitimacy. He also wants to end the war on drugs. Man ending the wars and the war on drugs would do so much for the world.
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I want to second what Kuros said about the way jfromtheway responded. That was unfair.
You are right that some of his ideas are gaining popularity. That should give you pause. For years...years, the man has been considered a loon even by his own party. While some of his ideas are acceptable, they come with a slew of radical ideas. Are you sure you want the world's largest economy jerked faaaar to the right with a radical experiment in returning to 19th Century?
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| But if you're going to argue that reform is futile, maybe you should start by arguing why the status quo is worthy of our submission. |
If reform is futile, then submission could be one alternative, but revolution is also an alternative. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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If Ron Paul got elected it couldn't be seen as anything other than a national mandate to change things and Congress would be under immense pressure by their constituents to make some changes.
Furthermore, there would be a slew of Ron Paul-esque candidates running for Congress. I'd imagine every congresssional district would have a like minded person.
There are some things Paul couldn't get done but I would guess that if he won, it would be on 2 or 3 major points that people would want to see come to fruition.
As for the non Americans being 'off base', I also agree with kuros and Ya-ta-boy. Its not only arrogant but often incorrect. American politics may be somewhat cutlural but its not rocket scientist to figure out. Many of the problems are not only simple but also common in many other countries such as special interest groups having more voice than the people and the power of the corporations. |
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jfromtheway
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Usually off-base. Not that politics anywhere are impossible to understand, or even vary too greatly. But travel extensively and meet some W. Europeans, Australians (usually the case for me), and sometimes Canadians, who jump start political conversations about America without often knowing a shred of what they're talking about, and you see the real futility. Which is what I was talking about. On the other side, I have met plenty of people of varying nationalities who do know a lot about American politics, so of course it's never one sided. Your average political conversation though? Ugh. And this is an American dominated message board. Not saying your average American isn't largely clueless as well, or that no one here knows what they're talking about. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Truth be told MOST Americans know very little about politics. I'd be surprised if they could pass a 4th grade civics and government test. |
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Eddy24
Joined: 13 Nov 2010
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:46 am Post subject: |
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It is pretty arrogant and stupid to hold suspicion against me because I am British and act as if therefore I cannot hold an opinion on American politics. There are a ton of Americans that know next to nothing about politics, just because they are American doesn't necessarily make there opinions more or less worthwhile. Be like Ron Paul, judge people as individuals lol
In any case, I don't think that Ron Paul will win the nomination. I would like to see him do well and further the spread of his ideas. I particularly like his antiwar views. You all know that Britain will simply follow the US into most wars due to similar special interests.
I personally think people are making a really stupid decision to not only not vote for him but vote for any of the other candidates. I do not see any of them ending the wars or sorting out the economy. On those two issues I believe Paul would be able to turn it around and help save the US and much of the world in the process. Don't get me wrong, he's hardly perfect. I'm not even a libertarian but I don't have to be to think that ending the drug war, ending wars and using the cuts in spending to lower taxes and help the economy are a good thing to do. I see these issues as too important. Plus, with Paul you know he is really principled becasue he's pretty much always voted the way he does. Obama pretended he was anti-war, but had continued to vote to fund the Iraq war before he was president, didn't end Iraq and continued with private military contractors, expanded the war in Afghanistan, started one in Libya and hasn't even closed Guantanamo like he promised!!!
The fact of the matter is that the amount that the US spends on wars could help the US enormously and none of the other candidates are going to do that.
Obama especially IS more of the same on the war issues, economics and drugs ( Ok i think obama supported medical marijuana but that's nothing in the face of things). As long as Obama continues in pushing the US in much the same way then further economic disaster looms. The guy who everyone was falling over, first black president, CHANGE and all that will go down in history as the guy who brought America to its knees. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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If Ron Paul got elected it couldn't be seen as anything other than a national mandate to change things and Congress would be under immense pressure by their constituents to make some changes.
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Would it be similar to Jan. '09 when Obama came in to office and the GOP rolled over and gave him what he wanted? Those were wonderful days when the Senate was a hotbed of bipartisanship and all sorts of reforms flew through without a hiccup. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Plus, with Paul you know he is really principled becasue he's pretty much always voted the way he does. |
What you call 'principled' others (not me! ) call ideologically hidebound to the point of opposing civil rights on the grounds that it would inconvenience property owners. Oh wait, that was his son the senator. As the great English political scientist Sir Isaac Newton demonstrated, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| Plus, with Paul you know he is really principled becasue he's pretty much always voted the way he does. |
What you call 'principled' others (not me! ) call ideologically hidebound to the point of opposing civil rights on the grounds that it would inconvenience property owners. Oh wait, that was his son the senator. As the great English political scientist Sir Isaac Newton demonstrated, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. |
So true, so true. Look at the Kennedy brood: all crooks like Patriach Joe. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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^
I'm a little surprised to see you taking the Jean Genet view of crime. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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If Ron Paul got elected it couldn't be seen as anything other than a national mandate to change things and Congress would be under immense pressure by their constituents to make some changes.
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Would it be similar to Jan. '09 when Obama came in to office and the GOP rolled over and gave him what he wanted? Those were wonderful days when the Senate was a hotbed of bipartisanship and all sorts of reforms flew through without a hiccup. |
It most definitely would be a mandate. Ron Paul is a Libertarian in Republican clothing. Its well understood he's not 'Republican' as we know it. The american people voting for him in would be a full rejection of BOTH parties. He is a quasi 3rd party candidate.
I have no question it would be a mandate and both parties know it. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| Plus, with Paul you know he is really principled becasue he's pretty much always voted the way he does. |
What you call 'principled' others (not me! ) call ideologically hidebound to the point of opposing civil rights on the grounds that it would inconvenience property owners. Oh wait, that was his son the senator. As the great English political scientist Sir Isaac Newton demonstrated, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. |
First its a stretch to tie the son to the father. I don't believe the same things my father does. Many people don't. His son is an adult with his own thoughts on views. Was he probably influenced by his father? No question, I'd assume so, but they are two totally and separate people.
Second, doing what you say you will do is principled. In that regard he is. Let me ask you this question. Will he attempt to do what he professes? I'm not asking if you agree with him but do you believe he'll make a good faith effort to do what he proposes? |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| Plus, with Paul you know he is really principled becasue he's pretty much always voted the way he does. |
What you call 'principled' others (not me! ) call ideologically hidebound to the point of opposing civil rights on the grounds that it would inconvenience property owners. Oh wait, that was his son the senator. As the great English political scientist Sir Isaac Newton demonstrated, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. |
So true, so true. Look at the Kennedy brood: all crooks like Patriach Joe. |
Or the Gore brood. Al's father as Senator was against the Civil Rights Act. Is Al against it? |
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