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recent Korean census shows 30% of Koreans over 30 are single
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decolyon

Joined: 24 Jul 2010

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:03 am Post subject:

Captain Corea wrote:

Sure, lifespans are increasing... but are retirement ages? I mean, if people are partying like it's 1999 in all of their 20's, who is going to pay for it? Their parents? Themselves? Society? Should we now extend retirement age to 70+ because the youth of today prefer to hang out?

As well, I worry about the biological limits attached to all of this. If marriage is put off until later in life... how will kids factor in? Pretty sure that one of the reasons Korea has a declining birthrate is related to delaying marriage.

I'm with you on that. Especially back home. The system wasn't meant to pay for 20 or 30 years of retirement. We live longer, we need to work longer. Retiring at 65 is ridiculous these days. I know so many 65 year old that retired and 2 or 3 years later wore bored out of their mind. They took up whole new jobs or part time work just to have something to do.

Of course that's a little different here. Post retired people still work, not because they want to, but because they need to. Their version of social security is down right terrible.

The whole birthrate thing for Korea, Japan, and the US will work itself out. George Friedman is a noted world economist and was an adviser to Pres. Clinton. He's written a lot about the population boom and busts and modern economies. The short of it is there are huge population booms when economies cross over from developing to advanced. Advanced economies eventually replace humans with systems and mechanical devices to do many jobs. Thus, the need to have many children is reduced and generations after the boom generation get smaller. Of course this doesn't continue to oblivion, there is a leveling off point. But until that older and larger generation passes, the economy supported by the younger smaller ones will be under strain. As evident in Japan, Korea, and the US. 50 years from now, the public retirement systems and problems with the health care systems will vanish. Since the working generation will be about the same size as the retired generation, there will be greater balance.

There is a reality to this that people don't like talking about. Old people, and I mean really old like 80+ do become a strain on the economy and society as a whole. At that age it becomes difficult for them to provide for themselves. When the biggest generation in your country is at that age or approaching it, it's an incredible strain on the government and working population. But we simply have to endure it. The only other option is eliminating public systems put in place to help the elderly and then becoming old means becoming poor again. There was a time no country had medicare or social security or their version of those things, and unless they were independently wealthy, old people were very very poor. It is our responsibility to never let that happen again.

When that burden is placed fairly between the working group and the government, then the strain is evident, but can be worked through. It may slow growth, but wont limit it. If you take a country like Thailand, who you'd think should have a better economy than it does, but has no public safety net for its older generations and instead the burden of responsibility is placed entirely on the children and charity, you can see how economic potential gets suffocated. Thais send a great deal of their money home to pay for grandma and grandfather whereas if half of that money could be invested in a new company or further education, it would benefit everyone much greater.

Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:29 am Post subject:

Captain Corea wrote:

As well, I worry about the biological limits attached to all of this....

one of the reasons Korea has a declining birthrate is related to delaying marriage.

How tragic, a declining birthrate. Rolling Eyes

50 million people crowded onto a country the size of a postage stamp yet you want the population to increase?

...until when? until everyone lives in cubicles stacked on top of eachother and has to crowd-surf to work in the morning?

Your thinking is antiquated. It dates to a time when people power really mattered in terms of forming armies to invade neighbouring lands. ie somewhere around the 10th century.

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:49 am Post subject:

decolyon wrote:

Captain Corea wrote:

My worry is that if people live for 80 some-odd years, and only work for 20-25 of them (such as in Korea), it seems unsustainable.

Julius wrote:

How tragic, a declining birthrate. Rolling Eyes

I'm hoping this mens that you're not having kids. /cheer

Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:13 am Post subject:

Captain Corea wrote:

I'm hoping this mens that you're not having kids. /cheer

ad-homs do not win a discussion.

Neither do they answer the questions i raised.

They could also get you banned. Wink

gem

Joined: 06 Dec 2010

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:37 am Post subject:

[quote="Weigookin74"]

gem wrote:

One of my coteachers is divorced and its like he has leprosy. The other teachers shun him. I feel for this dude. He's a good guy but a bit arrogant because he has to overcompensate for his "failure" as a husband and a father. I could not care less.

Another one of my coteachers is pushing spinster age (for a Korean girl, age 30) and incredibly smart and gorgeous (no surgeries) and I have told her to take her next vacation to Miami beach. Wear only bikinis and tan a little (no need to fear the sun in America) and you'll meet the rich Jewish attorney of your dreams. She could do it!

Why aren't you telling her to marry you instead? Geeze, I gotta smack some sense into some of you guys. Ha ha.

That's funny. I'm a girl but have been told many times through the years that I think like a man. And yeah, if I were, I'd try for this girl. She's super smart and hot. Your dream girl. Hopefully she'll take my advice.

PatrickGHBusan

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:34 am Post subject:

eamo wrote:

PatrickGHBusan wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

decolyon wrote:

There has been a lot written about this "extended period of youth" that has developed over the last quarter century in the worlds most advanced nations.

In short, if you look back, the age of "adult hood" (by which I mean marriage, having children, working at a career - not just jobs) has gradually gotten older and older since about the turn of the century. It wasn't uncommon for mid and upper teens to start families and careers in the US around the early 1900s. But also, most of those people would have died in their mid 60s.

The fact that we live much longer lives has entitled us to have a longer period of "free" time. Free from the responsibilities of children and a full time career. The fact that society and the economy doesn't need us to reproduce as fast as possible is also a major factor.

30 really is the new 20.

The flip side to this is that the onset of emotional maturity has advanced accordingly.

Back in the day 13 year olds were expected to conduct themselves as adults. Now we basically treat anyone under 30 as a glorified child and make excuses for them. Is it any wonder that we get the antics that we are experiencing with the 20-30 set?

That is a gereat point steel. I am noticing this here in Canada as well at my work.

An interesting book (Guyland) came out on this a couple of years ago. The author does take his premise too far and loses some credibility in doing so but the core of his ideas are in line with what you hinted at in your post.

I'm agreeing with Decolyon here.......one of the benefits of living in a developed country is that there is less pressure to get a steady job and get married in your 20's. I think that's a good thing. Why not extend the party a few years more? Why put the nose to grindstone earlier rather than later? It doesn't make sense.

Personally, I have no problem with 20-something slackers enjoying themselves. Do people in their 20's need to be all mature and serious? People have been bemoaning for forever that 'life goes by so fast' or that 'youth passes so quickly'.......

As someone else said, people's lifespans are increasing. We can put off career and kids for 10 years longer than before because we're living longer and more productive lives.

I also think it makes a lot more sense to take more time to carefully choose a career that you want to get into. What might seem like a good career at 22 might be hateful when you're 32.

And a 35 year old is more likely to make a good marriage/kids decision than a 25 year old.

So, sorry grandad's. Don't agree with you.

You are turning into quite the mini-stalker aren't you! You pop up when I post and disagree. Well since I ain't a granddad and since I agree with you on several points here goes...

There is nothing wrong with extending the party a few years nor is there anything wrong with taking longer to choose a career. I arrived in Korea in my late 20s and had kids close to my mid 30s because I was not sure before. I found I was in a far better position to choose when I was in my 30s.

Then again, that was not what I was discussing in my previous post. I may have worded it wrong or you may have just ignored it in your hurry to disagree with me. What I was discussing is adulthood vs trying to remain a teen during your entire 20s.

By no means does a 20 year old HAVE to get a career right away, or buy a house or any of that. However, that person should technically grow and mature as he or she approaches his 30s. The thing that delaying does is that it will hit you later in life when you are older and may prefer to work less. Then, those wasted years (if you wasted them) will hurt you because you may not be able to afford to slow down and you may have kids and obligations that force you to keep up the work pace. Someone who started working seriously in his 20s however will have far more choices later on in life.

Thats just one path anyway, its not universal.

Anyway by all means, do take your time to choose a career. That choice may end up changing 5 years down the road as it is becoming rarer and rarer to see people stick to one career for their entire working lives. People tend to jump from one job/career field to the other now. That is great and I did that myself. In fact, I changed career fields in 2008 and now, a short 3 years later, I am working on changing yet again. It keeps me motivated and interested. I became a certified teacher when I was in my early 20s and did that for a few years before coming to Korea. I had a passion for education then and still do. Then in Korea things changed and while I continued to teach I got into consulting. A few years later, I switched to a public sector job in Canada. So I chose teaching in my 20s, that got me rolling professionally and financially and now years later, my options are far more numerous and I am glad for it! Career choices these days are not all that permament nor binding anyway.
Same deal for people starting families, most of my friends had their kids like we did, in their 30s as opposed to their 20s. We took our time to set up our careers and establish financial stability.

As for the granddad comment, I just turned 40 so not there yet but thanks for the barb, I expected no less from you considering your recent rash of posts.

Take care "kid" Wink

Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:21 am Post subject:

PatrickGHBusan wrote:

The thing that delaying does is that it will hit you later in life when you are older and may prefer to work less. Then, those wasted years (if you wasted them) will hurt you because you may not be able to afford to slow down and you may have kids and obligations that force you to keep up the work pace.

Absolutely, finding a career younger will set you up better for your later years and there is a lot of sense in what you say.

*However* some take the view that...

Years of travel or fun are not exactly wasted, they are life-enriching and mind-broadening

Spending the best years of your life in an office saving money for when you are too old to really enjoy it...amounts to a waste of your life

Many old folks are bored with retirement and prefer to remain in the workforce- doing any, any job because it gives them satisfaction.

A lot of your outlook depends on your personal background and upbringing. Without going into too much detail, there are a lot of factors involved in as to how you plan your own security.

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:33 pm Post subject:

Julius wrote:

Spending the best years of your life in an office saving money for when you are too old to really enjoy it...amounts to a waste of your life.

Some people like their jobs. Some people go on vacations. Some people have active lifestyles/interests/hobbies while enjoying the 'white picket fence'.

In fact, most of my friends back home would fall into this 'some people' category.

Weigookin74

Joined: 26 Oct 2009

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:56 pm Post subject:

gem wrote:

Maybe he's shunned because of his personality.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:59 pm Post subject:

Julius wrote:

PatrickGHBusan wrote:

Well, you can still enjoy life when you are old if life isn;t about cheap thrills. You can travel, you can help other people, you can read, you can enjoy music, you can play sports and games, you can do many many things.

Some of us also anticipate that from years 50-100 we may have a different view on things and then try to set ourselves up for that other half of our life.

But yes, live for the moment and thrills.

Modernist

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Location: The 90s

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:34 am Post subject:

Just mindlessly chasing 'fun' is not enriching or broadening. Even travel is not good just for its own sake. If anything, spending all your time with the same kind of people, people who enjoy the same kind of fun you do [indie music people, mountain climbers, gamers] actually often narrows your perspective on the world. In my experience, even going to universities drops you in with a group with a remarkably consistent outlook, often almost like a hive-mind. Spending a decade or two traveling around, no roots anywhere, could easily be seen as an attribute of someone who is afraid to stop and look carefully at themselves and their real life, and who would mask their insecurity and fear with a superficial film of cosmopolitanism and devil-may-care attitude. It is a far thing from maturity. Ultimately we all have to decide what we are to do with this life we have. I think there are far worse choices to make than to say that I would like to have a smart, funny, curious partner who would help me raise a decent member of the human race to grow up and themselves do some small thing to make the planet a better place. If you think bumming around Thailand at 37 dating a 23-year-old and making $27,000 a year teaching ESL while spending your free time surfing and cataloging every third-rate bar and club in Bangkok is a full life, that's your choice to make. But I'm pretty sure I pity you.

rainism

Joined: 13 Apr 2011

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:50 am Post subject:

Modernist wrote:

Just mindlessly chasing 'fun' is not enriching or broadening. Even travel is not good just for its own sake.

If anything, spending all your time with the same kind of people, people who enjoy the same kind of fun you do [indie music people, mountain climbers, gamers] actually often narrows your perspective on the world. In my experience, even going to universities drops you in with a group with a remarkably consistent outlook, often almost like a hive-mind.

Spending a decade or two traveling around, no roots anywhere, could easily be seen as an attribute of someone who is afraid to stop and look carefully at themselves and their real life, and who would mask their insecurity and fear with a superficial film of cosmopolitanism and devil-may-care attitude. It is a far thing from maturity.

Ultimately we all have to decide what we are to do with this life we have. I think there are far worse choices to make than to say that I would like to have a smart, funny, curious partner who would help me raise a decent member of the human race to grow up and themselves do some small thing to make the planet a better place.

If you think bumming around Thailand at 37 dating a 23-year-old and making $27,000 a year teaching ESL while spending your free time surfing and cataloging every third-rate bar and club in Bangkok is a full life, that's your choice to make. But I'm pretty sure I pity you.

I don't know about "full life". I'm not even sure what that means, and as seen in this thread, it may have a different meaning to different people which is at it should be.

however, I am pretty sure that in your last example, your pity club would be in the minority. (I'm going to guess you're younger, perhaps significantly so than 37). My bet is that the majority of his 35+ old counterparts would very much envy him rather than pity him. At the very least for a year or so.

ibeattheborg

Joined: 17 Dec 2010
Location: the deep blue sea

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:25 pm Post subject:

Modernist wrote:

blah blah blah............ But I'm pretty sure I pity you.

With a name like that I would have assumed that you would be in favour of anything that broke with tradition, that you would embrace that hypothetical guy in Thailand for shaking off his shackles rather than pitying him. Have you rejected Modernism?

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