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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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 Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Israel encourages anti-semitism rather than quiets it. |
You want to re-settle Gazans back in Israel, in villages that their parents and grandparents were removed from.
But what about all the hundreds of thousands of Jews removed from, expelled, hounded, persecuted, martyred, killed or otherwise extirpated from all the Arab lands?
Are you going to give them back all their homes and properties in Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, morocco, and all the other countries?
Presumably you want to send all the Jews back to where they came from, to make way for returning palestinians.
In that case can you ensure their safety and equal rights in the numerous lands they fled from? |
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HijackedTw1light
Joined: 24 May 2010
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| I think Jews are as safe as any other minority throughout the Western world, although I would be less confident in asserting they are safe in parts of Eastern Europe. |
According to FBI statistics released in 2009, Jews remain, by far, the group most targeted in religiously motivated crime in the US. Almost 72 percent target Jews, compared to 8 percent targeting Muslims.
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2009/victims.html
Still, by no means would I call America anti-Jewish. The picture in Europe, however, even Western Europe, is less rosy. Actually, let me put that more emphatically: the notion that Jews are as safe there as any other minority, is a joke. Mostly because of a fanatical minority within the sizable and growing Muslim minority there. I'll give a couple examples, but they're not isolated incidents:
In the Netherlands, police have started using "decoy Jews" to catch would-be attackers.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/7846704/Dutch-police-use-decoy-Jews-to-stop-anti-Semitic-attacks.html
Ilan Halimi was a French Jew. A gang of captors, of whom 27 were indicted in the French courts, tortured and killed him. The neighbors reportedly came in to watch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Halimi
If people want to criticize Israel's actions, fine, that's fair, but we don't have to pretend like the rest of the world is in love with the Jewish people. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| HijackedTw1light wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| I think Jews are as safe as any other minority throughout the Western world, although I would be less confident in asserting they are safe in parts of Eastern Europe. |
According to FBI statistics released in 2009, Jews remain, by far, the group most targeted in religiously motivated crime in the US. Almost 72 percent target Jews, compared to 8 percent targeting Muslims.
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2009/victims.html
Still, by no means would I call America anti-Jewish. The picture in Europe, however, even Western Europe, is less rosy. Actually, let me put that more emphatically: the notion that Jews are as safe there as any other minority, is a joke. Mostly because of a fanatical minority within the sizable and growing Muslim minority there. I'll give a couple examples, but they're not isolated incidents:
In the Netherlands, police have started using "decoy Jews" to catch would-be attackers.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/7846704/Dutch-police-use-decoy-Jews-to-stop-anti-Semitic-attacks.html
Ilan Halimi was a French Jew. A gang of captors, of whom 27 were indicted in the French courts, tortured and killed him. The neighbors reportedly came in to watch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Halimi
If people want to criticize Israel's actions, fine, that's fair, but we don't have to pretend like the rest of the world is in love with the Jewish people. |
Yeah, but that's kind of beside the point, these are more or less isolated incidents, and to say that a Jew in the west is in serious danger of attack is untrue, and hardly enough to justify a state to protect them. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| HijackedTw1light wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| I think Jews are as safe as any other minority throughout the Western world, although I would be less confident in asserting they are safe in parts of Eastern Europe. |
According to FBI statistics released in 2009, Jews remain, by far, the group most targeted in religiously motivated crime in the US. Almost 72 percent target Jews, compared to 8 percent targeting Muslims.
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2009/victims.html
Still, by no means would I call America anti-Jewish. The picture in Europe, however, even Western Europe, is less rosy. Actually, let me put that more emphatically: the notion that Jews are as safe there as any other minority, is a joke. Mostly because of a fanatical minority within the sizable and growing Muslim minority there. I'll give a couple examples, but they're not isolated incidents:
In the Netherlands, police have started using "decoy Jews" to catch would-be attackers.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/7846704/Dutch-police-use-decoy-Jews-to-stop-anti-Semitic-attacks.html
Ilan Halimi was a French Jew. A gang of captors, of whom 27 were indicted in the French courts, tortured and killed him. The neighbors reportedly came in to watch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Halimi
If people want to criticize Israel's actions, fine, that's fair, but we don't have to pretend like the rest of the world is in love with the Jewish people. |
That's a far, far cry from the Holocaust. And before you say, "1,500 anti-Jewish violence incidents are 1,500 too many," remember exactly what it is trying to justify: all the collateral damage of Zionism.
Is Zionism a properly tailored solution to the problem? Who would dare argue such a thing? I assume not you.
Last edited by Kuros on Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Israel encourages anti-semitism rather than quiets it. |
You want to re-settle Gazans back in Israel, in villages that their parents and grandparents were removed from.
But what about all the hundreds of thousands of Jews removed from, expelled, hounded, persecuted, martyred, killed or otherwise extirpated from all the Arab lands?
Are you going to give them back all their homes and properties in Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, morocco, and all the other countries?
Presumably you want to send all the Jews back to where they came from, to make way for returning palestinians.
In that case can you ensure their safety and equal rights in the numerous lands they fled from? |
One shouldn't presume anything, it's a bad look. While it might be nice to resettle people, it's obviously won't happen. I believe that the settlers should be moved off their land as it violates international, and in many cases Israeli, law and endangers the china ware fragile peace process. Compensation for lost land would be the least the government could do. Why is it hard for you to believe that one can be critical of both Arab and Israeli actions? What happened to those Jews in Arab countries was bad. |
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HijackedTw1light
Joined: 24 May 2010
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
That's a far, far cry from the Holocaust. And before you say, "1,500 anti-Jewish violence incidents are 1,500 too many," remember exactly what it is trying to justify: all the collateral damage of Zionism.
Is Zionism a properly tailored solution to the problem? Who would dare argue such a thing? I assume not you. |
Wow, that's a lot of Strawman arguments for such a short post.
I never said it was like the Holocaust. I'm pointing out that Jews are not as safe as other minorities. You thought they were, especially in America and Western Europe.
And I wasn't using these crimes to justify the state of Israel. Such a justification is unnecessary. |
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rusty1983
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
Isn't that so British. The self-righteous indignation and scape-goating of israel by a nation that caused most of the worlds problems to begin with.
and the way they think they are experts on everything in world affairs yet few have ever left their armchairs.
The way they try to feel significant (having lost the empire) by meddling in the affairs of other countries that they know nothing about.
Well meaning idiots (at best.)  |
This is the kind of anger Coldplay inspire. As a UK citizen, please disregard anything Coldplay do as being representative of the UK.
They are an embarrassment to us. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| I believe that the settlers should be moved off their land as it violates international, and in many cases Israeli, law |
So you're saying that only Arabs should be given back what they have lost, but not Jews. According to you they just have to suck it up.
| Quote: |
| and endangers the china ware fragile peace process. |
How about Palestinians firing rockets into Israel constantly and killing innocent Israelis.
Does that not count as "endangering the fragile peace process" to you?.
| Quote: |
| Why is it hard for you to believe that one can be critical of both Arab and Israeli actions? |
Because you only ever criticise Israeli actions, while ignoring far worse abuses comitted by Arabs?
The reason this discussion continues is not because of the force or legitimacy of your argument. Its because a few people cannot stand to see Anti-jewish lies go unanswered. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| HijackedTw1light wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
That's a far, far cry from the Holocaust. And before you say, "1,500 anti-Jewish violence incidents are 1,500 too many," remember exactly what it is trying to justify: all the collateral damage of Zionism.
Is Zionism a properly tailored solution to the problem? Who would dare argue such a thing? I assume not you. |
Wow, that's a lot of Strawman arguments for such a short post.
I never said it was like the Holocaust. I'm pointing out that Jews are not as safe as other minorities. You thought they were, especially in America and Western Europe.
And I wasn't using these crimes to justify the state of Israel. Such a justification is unnecessary. |
Less of a strawman than the proper context for my comment about whether Jews are as safe as other minorities (the answer, btw, is basically yes; its far more dangerous to be an African-American in the US). When you jump into a conversation to dump some data, there's a backdrop you sometimes miss.
So how would you justify Israel? Because Netanyahu is doing a really poor job, and could use some help. |
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HijackedTw1light
Joined: 24 May 2010
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Less of a strawman than the proper context for my comment about whether Jews are as safe as other minorities (the answer, btw, is basically yes; its far more dangerous to be an African-American in the US). When you jump into a conversation to dump some data, there's a backdrop you sometimes miss.
So how would you justify Israel? Because Netanyahu is doing a really poor job, and could use some help. |
The context didn't slip past. You and Fox were discussing the "Sword of Damocles" problem of Jews living in exile at the "sufferance of gentiles," as he put it. I jumped in to correct a factual error, mostly because factual errors bug me, and not really to justify Israel (that's not my thing, I think it's the wrong focus). If you want to talk about a justification of Israel based on antisemitism, maybe Fox will take it up with you. He presented a decent argument, though antisemitism was only part of it, if I recall.
If you're really lucky you can take it up with Benny Morris, probably the most prominent Israeli historian, who said this in an interview:
"We are the greater victims in the course of history and we are also the greater potential victim. Even though we are oppressing the Palestinians, we are the weaker side here. We are a small minority in a large sea of hostile Arabs who want to eliminate us. So it's possible that when their desire is realized, everyone will understand what I am saying to you now. Everyone will understand we are the true victims. But by then it will be too late." |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Current Israeli policy is the greatest existential threat to Israel right now.
Greater than the threat of a nuclear Iran.
Greater than the threat of Hezbollah.
And greater than the threat of Hamas.
And I am baffled by Fox's (limited to be fair) defense of the settlers. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| And I am baffled by Fox's (limited to be fair) defense of the settlers. |
Israel entered the west bank in 1967 in order to protect its own citizens from attack by Jordan. Occupation is then provoked and justified by Jordanian agression.
In the same way Britain occupied part of Germany in 1945: this was demmed entirely legal, for the same reason.
Remember that Jordan illegally annexed the West bank in 1950.
So in 1967, Israel did not occupy sovereign Jordanian territory.
neither did they occupy soveriegn Palestinian territory. Because the Palestinians had not acted on resolutions to establish a state.
The West bank, then is merely "disputed territory", not illegally occupied soveriegn land.
In any case, many of the settlements in WB were occupied by Jews from a long time previously.
I'm talking about areas like Hebron
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebron.html
Neve yakov
http://www.jerusalemshots.com/Jerusalem_en11-10767.html
or Gush Etzion.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/geo/Etzion.html
These are towns that Jews were forced to abandon when attacked by Jordan in 1948. When they returned to their homes in 1967, they were, absurdly, deemed "illegal settlers" by the int. community. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Current Israeli policy is the greatest existential threat to Israel right now. |
You're on dodgy ground. If the State of Israel was erased from existence as we speak, the "current Israeli policy is the greatest existential threat to Israel right now" position would permit one to largely overlook the age-old Judeaphobic menace and argue that "current Israeli policy" was to blame. That's the kind of argument one might expect to read in a certain hateful disgusting rag from Broken Britain.
But not only that. Your claim is simply false. "Current Israeli policy", such as the security fence, has kept Israelis safer than ever. Deplorable though missiles launched from Gaza are, they pose a modest threat compared to what Israel endured circa 2001-4, when there were 130 suicide bombings killing over 400 Israelis. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Current Israeli policy is the greatest existential threat to Israel right now. |
You're on dodgy ground. If the State of Israel was erased from existence as we speak, the "current Israeli policy is the greatest existential threat to Israel right now" position would permit one to largely overlook the age-old Judeaphobic menace and argue that "current Israeli policy" was to blame. That's the kind of argument one might expect to read in a certain hateful disgusting rag from Broken Britain.
But not only that. Your claim is simply false. "Current Israeli policy", such as the security fence, has kept Israelis safer than ever. Deplorable though missiles launched from Gaza are, they pose a modest threat compared to what Israel endured circa 2001-4, when there were 130 suicide bombings killing over 400 Israelis. |
I'm not arguing against a security fence. If current Israeli policy consisted of only the security fence, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I'm talking about settlers beyond the security wall, and Netanyahu's tense dance with them. Here's a map of the settlements within the West Bank.
There's also the Gaza blockade, of course. (In a proper security wall, you let persons and goods inspected and authorized through)
The difference between you and I Sergio is that as an American I get associated (only somewhat fairly) with this kind of behavior. It makes me resentful of it. The Guardian is vile, though. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| I'm talking about settlers beyond the security wall. |
I already demonstrated to you that many Israeli residential areas in the west bank were occupied by Jews since 90 years ago. In some cases such as hebron, the Jewish occupancy pre-dates Arab.
In any case the entire area is part of ancient Israel. You seem attracted to the S-word. care to define it? Because logically speaking it is the Arabs that are the foreign "settlers".
| Quote: |
Current Israeli policy is the greatest existential threat to Israel right now.
Greater than the threat of a nuclear Iran.
Greater than the threat of Hezbollah.
And greater than the threat of Hamas. |
Bollocks.
I see you are partial to making silly and exaggerated statements. You share that in common with Arab leaders.
FYI Israel already gave away as much land as it possibly could, including southern lebanon, sinai and Gaza. And each time it brought them no nearer to peace, rather it made them more vulnerable.
)Relinquishing southern lebanon enabled Hexbollah to pound Israeli towns.
)relinquishing gaza brought an increasedonslaught of rockets.
My opinion is that israel has made enough fruitless concessions and that they must go ahead and continue settling the West bank. They will be harshly criticised no matter what, so it doesn't make much diff.
You don't get it that arabs want to annihilate Israel at all costs. No amount of further concessions from Israel is going to make this historic enmity disappear. It is an ancient feud that goes far deeper than your naive proposed political remedies.
In any case many WB settlements are strategically necessary as a security/ buffer against Arab attack. |
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