Korean Job Discussion Forums :: View topic - SWAT Team Raids Man�s Home Over Student Loans

Speak Korean Now!

Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!

Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

SWAT Team Raids Man�s Home Over Student Loans
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next

Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

Zyzyfer

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:12 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Either hold law enforcement AND people to strict standards of behavior or neither.

That's a nice sentiment and all, but you're not really presenting anything to effectively respond to. How are current laws concerning the debtor regarding defaulting on debt payments unsatisfactory? How is a majority of posters stating that physical force (i.e. destruction of property during a search) is unwarranted unfair to law enforcement?

Frankly, I have no idea who you're even deriding with your arguments. I listed out the negatives of defaulting on payments owed - even paying a $50 cable bill one month late has a deleterious effect on a person's credit record which can potentially remain for years. Financial institutions carry quite strict penalties even for minor/innocent mistakes leading to a nonpayment of a regular bill. It seems like enough to keep a sensible person, anyone conscious of the bad side of not paying their bills, in line.

But wait, now they can slap a crapload of fees and punishments on me and kick my door down and throw me around? lol

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:12 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

That person signed a contract to pay a debt. He didn't authorize the use of grossly disproportionate force to collect that debt. What he may have authorized is the creditor's ability to inform other potential creditors that the debtor was unable to pay his obligations, and thus he should not be allowed to borrow further.

Not quite. UCC � 9-503. Secured Party's Right to Take Possession After Default.

Quote:

Unless otherwise agreed a secured party has on default the right to take possession of the collateral. In taking possession a secured party may proceed without judicial process if this can be done without breach of the peace or may proceed by action. If the security agreement so provides the secured party may require the debtor to assemble the collateral and make it available to the secured party at a place to be designated by the secured party which is reasonably convenient to both parties. Without removal a secured party may render equipment unusable, and may dispose of collateral on the debtor's premises under Section 9-504.

Those repossessing may not breach the peace, and if there is resistance, it falls on the repo people. The repo people can come back until there is no resistance, or they can resort to judicial process and a writ of replevin.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:38 am Post subject:

shifter2009 wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

Yes, if someone fails to pay, your stuff can get repossessed. And if you try to physically stop people from repossessing your stuff, they are within their rights to resist your resisting.

If you become belligerent about it the police may become involved.

All of this is avoided of course, by A) Not signing loans you can't afford, and B) Paying on time and C)Not resisting the police or repo men.

Quote:

Fraud denotes a deliberate, usually premeditated swindle (basically theft), not an unintentional inability to repay the loan after the fact.

I would submit that fraud need not be premeditated in the case of loans, but can also arise during the loan repayment process. If you at some point choose to actively disregard paying for the loans, then yes, you are defrauding the company.

Quote:

Why on earth would anyone loan money to a deadbeat? I think student loans are one of the only loans you can get in good faith. Everything else is locked into your credit score and credit history.

Not everyone who decides to defraud on a loan is an obvious deadbeat.

Sometimes Law enforcement can go overboard, but at the same time sometimes people can be deadbeats. Either hold law enforcement AND people to strict standards of behavior or neither. Your law enforcement should reflect the values of your society.

But think carefully about embracing a society that has a very casual attitude to debt and financial crime.

I used to think you were a pretty level headed guy but lately you have been weirding me out with some of your stances. This is a story about a guy who had NO debt getting his door kid by a SWAT team. Yeah, they thought someone who had an outstanding debt was there but you know what would have been a good way to handle the situation? Knocking and THEN searching. You got fifteen cops available but you got no one to watch the back door to make sure no one bolts while someone knocks on the front door? Your looking for someone defaulting on their student loans, not Al Capone. Even if you think we are too soft on debtors you can't really believe this is the appropriate response. The whole situation is retarded

The previous thread on Dave's where people actively endorsed not paying their student loans darkened my view of the situation. Catch me two years ago (back in hazy Ann Arbor) and I would have also screamed "police state". Life goes on though.

To me the biggest freedom out there is economic freedom. With that, all the other freedom's become feasibly possible. Without it, you might as well be a surf. Large numbers of people who refuse to pay debt, and if things keep going like they are there are going to be LOTS of college loan defaulters, jeopardize the economic freedom of society. Think IMF or Eurozone and austerity.

Nip the problem in the bud if you can. Send a strong message to the culture of debt and would be slackers.

At some point you need to be able to recover debt or have people arrested for failing to pay. At some point failure to pay turns into intent to defraud. When that happens the people should be treated as thieves and locked up. People who are being arrested tend to violently resist.

Now perhaps in certain cases the police go overboard. I firmly believe that if the police break and enter into someone's property and cause damage and there is no evidence of a crime they should be held liable, which is usually not the case. In this case I do think a SWAT team is a bit of a misuse of funds. One thing I would caution is I bet "SWAT Team" is one of those words the uninformed media throw out like "Uzi".

But I mainly entered this thread to caution those who scream "police state" and "what's wrong with not paying loans?" to think long and hard. I should also add that those who advocate the credit system should keep in mind that its effectiveness has been limited when it comes to bad loans. That and to remind everyone that while preach high and mighty, remember this- If anyone eve ripped off 25 grand from you (even through some seemingly "legit" measure, say a stockbroker) you would certainly not be opposed to such a person being taken down by the police or you fighting the guy.

You play with the fire of large sums of other people's money, be prepared for the burn.

Really the solution to this was not opening up college to the masses through student loans to the degree that we did. Maybe $10,000 in loans is fine, but the six-figure loans are ridiculous. Degrees would have maintained their value. The college loan bubble that is going to burst would not have been made, and tuition would not have skyrocketed in the manner that it did.

recessiontime

Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:19 am Post subject:

Steel: I would happily lend anyone 25000 if the loan itself is backed by the government. I would be reimbursed by the government should the borrower decide to default.

sirius black

Joined: 04 Jun 2010

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:16 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Even if someone has that mentality, it doesn't excuse the use of SWAT with regards to a student loan debt. Even if its fraud. There is and always have been ample legal recourse.

Using that line of thought, SWAT could be used to find evidence of fraud for ANY matter like ordering cable and not intending to pay for it. Cheating on your taxes. That can amount to thousands. Or are you saying there is a financial standard for the use of SWAT for those who could care less about paying back a student loan?

Society has built in mechanisms to punish those who willfully defraud. The use of SWAT has never been used prior for this type of situation and shouldn't be one of them. If more and people think its okay to default on student loans, it becomes harder to get one, which should be what happens. The 'system' has a built in way to punish us if too many of us take advantage of it.

A bit dramatic on your part linking defaulting on student loans as some precursor of economic doom. The student loan market is about 85 billion dollars. This amount is inconsequential in a multi trillion dollar company.

RangerMcGreggor

Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:22 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

If you at some point choose to actively disregard paying for the loans, then yes, you are defrauding the company.

No it isn't. Fraud is when you are intentionally misleading the company to receive money. If you disregard paying your loans, noone is mislead as the loaner will know pretty quickly you aren't paying. There are legal consequences for this, especially if there is reason to believe you are intentionally going to break your agreement, but to call it fraud is wrong.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:22 pm Post subject:

RangerMcGreggor wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

If you at some point choose to actively disregard paying for the loans, then yes, you are defrauding the company.

So when your hagwon boss doesn't pay you according to the contract, that crime is???

And what do you think should happen? Simply take him to the labor board? Is that very effective? Do you think so many shady hagwons would be in operation if they faced arrest and a police batoning if they scammed an NET? Do you think those NETs that were cheated out of a few months pay would lose any sleep if the cops kicked down their hagwon bosses door and threw them in the clink?

It's the same thing.

RangerMcGreggor

Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:51 pm Post subject:

[quote="Steelrails"]

RangerMcGreggor wrote:

So when your hagwon boss doesn't pay you according to the contract, that crime is???

Is he not paying you because he is bankrupt or is he not paying you because he never planned to follow the contract?

Once again, there are numerous possible reasons for one to breach a contract. Some of them are legit, some of them aren't under the law. It is only fraud when you were planning BEFORE the contract was signed of breaching it. Not paying a loan is not fraud in itself, because the lender is going to know it pretty quickly.

And I don't know if someone mentioned this or not, but the DOE has flat out said the guy was being investigated for financial aid fraud, and not because he defaulted on loans. They even stated that they never send search warrants due to non-payments:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/09/unpaid-student-loan-raid-claim-refuted-as-feds-target-california-couple-in/?test=latestnews

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:03 pm Post subject:

[quote="RangerMcGreggor"]

Steelrails wrote:

RangerMcGreggor wrote:

So when your hagwon boss doesn't pay you according to the contract, that crime is???

So if I'm a hagwon boss and go out and sign you with "good faith" and then a month later take the all money and lose it at the casino and go bankrupt and then just decide to not pay you or suddenly shut down, I'm not defrauding you? I'm not committing some sort of crime? I haven't done something worthy of you beating me to a pulp?

Missing one payment is not fraud. Avoiding payment time and time again without any contact...well then....

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:21 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

I haven't done something worthy of you beating me to a pulp?

Why do you love violence so much? Is this an aspect of your upbringing or an aspect of your essence?

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:44 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

I haven't done something worthy of you beating me to a pulp?

Why do you love violence so much? Is this an aspect of your upbringing or an aspect of your essence?

So if I rip off a nice sum of money what are going to do? File a lawsuit against me? Send me a strongly worded letter? Have my assets seized.

In order to pull these off and make them work you need some kind of enforcement measure.

You do realize that there are people out there who just don't give a hoot and will take what they can until someone forceibly stops them right?

With 95% of the reasonable population you use the courts and whatnot. But there is that 5% that seems constitutionally incapable of responding to things in a reasonable orderly manner.

Have you ever loaned something of significant value to someone who has refused to give it? Had them just lauigh at the threat of the police or legal action? Guess what? If you refuse to use force the police might have to.

That's just reality. It's sad, but it's how things are.

Last edited by Steelrails on Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:47 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Fox wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

I haven't done something worthy of you beating me to a pulp?

Why do you love violence so much? Is this an aspect of your upbringing or an aspect of your essence?

So if I rip off a nice sum of money what are going to do? File a lawsuit against me?

Yes, that's precisely what I would end up doing. Under no circumstances would I assault you.

Putting that aside for a moment, though, my question was genuine and beyond the scope of merely this discussion (which doesn't in and of itself interest me all that much). You've called for violence in a number of situations (at times even mob violence), and that very honestly leaves me wondering why you have the love of violence you do. Were you raised that way, or is it something in you that simply strains for release? More curiosity than criticism, and I'd enjoy hearing your insights on the matter. I've been thinking about people's fundamental natures a lot lately.

recessiontime

Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:59 am Post subject:

Fox wrote:

I've been thinking about people's fundamental natures a lot lately.

tell me what you think about my fundamental nature

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:32 am Post subject:

recessiontime wrote:

Fox wrote:

I've been thinking about people's fundamental natures a lot lately.

tell me what you think about my fundamental nature

I meant people's as in "people in the abstract," not, "people on Dave's ESL Cafe." What part of us is immutable from birth and how that part interacts with the environment we live in to produce our active identity, values, and actions. Though if you have some insight as to how your sense of identity, values, and external behavior interact with your core essence, I'm happy to hear it.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:49 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Fox wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

I haven't done something worthy of you beating me to a pulp?

Why do you love violence so much? Is this an aspect of your upbringing or an aspect of your essence?

So if I rip off a nice sum of money what are going to do? File a lawsuit against me? Send me a strongly worded letter? Have my assets seized.

I don't have a problem with Steelrails' obsession with violence so much as his continued willful ignorance when it comes to debt collection, its common process, and the law surrounding it.

Display posts from previous:

	Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
Page 4 of 5

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe