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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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 Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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I guess my point would be that I have met 3 different kind of military here.
1.) Those soldiers on the DMZ who come to Itaewon once every three months or so to blow off steam. They know that they are considered a trip wire and that doesn't build confidence.
2.) Officers: Most I have met are more controlled and intelligent than any educated NET that I have met here.
3.) Long term personnel who are close to retirement whose friends are married to koreans and have been here for ever.
Personally I feel we should give them a break. Most I have met on a one to one convo have been pretty ok. Yes, they are a little wild at times, but so what. Its life.
The 0.01% that are rapists are a minority. NK attacks and local SK violence are more dangerous than any US soldier I have met over the years.
Oh, by the way, don't judge how long some one has been here by thier Daves joining date. I got burned a couple of times before doing that.
Though if the op is an anti US military person then fine for him/her, but they dont speak for me and I am willing to stand up for the US military personnel that I have met here. 90% are damm decent folk if you try to get to know them. |
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Mr. Peabody
Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Location: here
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| American soldiers are subject to the Korean justice system |
That must be fairly recent though?
The guys who ran over a the 2 korean girls a few years back got acquitted by an american court thanks to sofa, right?
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Jools, you obviously don't know much about what SOFA does or doesn't do. SOFA only covers soldiers WHILE ON DUTY. Off duty soldiers have been subject to Korean courts long before the accident with the two girls.
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| Thats an awful high crime rate you got there. Basically you have a GI convicted of a serious crime at least every other day. |
Traffic violations and DUI are "serious crimes"? lol
I only see one violent crime on that list. If you believe that no E-2 visa holders are charged with serious crimes each month, then you've never been to Itaewon or Hongdae on a Friday or Saturday night.
| Quote: |
| If english teachers did that, Korea would have banned the E2 years ago |
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It's a good thing English teachers are too cheap to buy cars.  |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| American soldiers are subject to the Korean justice system |
That must be fairly recent though? |
No. The Status of Force Agreement (SOFA) has always had the Servicemembers here subject to the local courts for off-duty incidents.
| Quote: |
| The guys who ran over a the 2 korean girls a few years back got acquitted by an american court thanks to sofa, right? |
That incident happened while they were performing their duty (driving a military vehicle on maneuvers). The military court of inquiry determined that the incident was an accident.
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| Thats an awful high crime rate you got there. Basically you have a GI convicted of a serious crime at least every other day. |
Well, you seem to be assuming that all those incidents happened in the same month. They obviously didn't, given that a number of the cases were decided on the 3rd of May. Serious crime? Traffic offenses? Yes, DUI and bodily injury, of course, are serious crimes. The point is that, contrary to (apparent) popular--from both Koreans and foreigners--opinion, the US military is subject to prosecution by Korean civilian authorities. As to how high the rate is, I couldn't say without checking the number of convictions against the number of personnel stationed here.
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| If english teachers did that, Korea would have banned the E2 years ago. |
Oh, come on. There have been more than a few cases of NETs convicted of really serious crimes--drug offenses, assaults, immigration fraud. Yet, they're not banned. Statistically, as has been shown on this site before, even counting those crimes, the rate of foreigners committing crimes here is lower than the rate of Koreans committing crimes. |
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Mr. Peabody
Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Location: here
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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^  |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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You roll your eyes at a post containing facts? That's quite funny.
By the way, the Korean government obviously agreed that the incident was an accident and took corrective action to remove the contributing factors. But for someone who doesn't care about facts, the only "contributing factor" there ever will be is "US Soldiers." |
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
You roll your eyes at a post containing facts? That's quite funny.
By the way, the Korean government obviously agreed that the incident was an accident and took corrective action to remove the contributing factors. But for someone who doesn't care about facts, the only "contributing factor" there ever will be is "US Soldiers." |
Eyerolloboy does this because he's got nothing to counter you with, or can't form an argument to save his life. Don't worry about it, you have done an excellent job pointing out the facts about things like this for a long time here, glad you're around. Cheers! |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks, Died by Bear. By the way, here is the US Embassy's Q&A page about the "June 13 Accident." I sure hope the term joint isn't too confusing for some folks. |
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murmanjake
Joined: 21 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Died By Bear wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
You roll your eyes at a post containing facts? That's quite funny.
By the way, the Korean government obviously agreed that the incident was an accident and took corrective action to remove the contributing factors. But for someone who doesn't care about facts, the only "contributing factor" there ever will be is "US Soldiers." |
Eyerolloboy does this because he's got nothing to counter you with, or can't form an argument to save his life. Don't worry about it, you have done an excellent job pointing out the facts about things like this for a long time here, glad you're around. Cheers! |
And here is why avatars are quite helpful. It can be quite the task to keep track of who said what if you're just looking at names. You guys are misinterpreting his eyeball roll. Check the post above yours CentralCali. |
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Mr. Peabody
Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Location: here
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| murmanjake wrote: |
| Died By Bear wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
You roll your eyes at a post containing facts? That's quite funny.
By the way, the Korean government obviously agreed that the incident was an accident and took corrective action to remove the contributing factors. But for someone who doesn't care about facts, the only "contributing factor" there ever will be is "US Soldiers." |
Eyerolloboy does this because he's got nothing to counter you with, or can't form an argument to save his life. Don't worry about it, you have done an excellent job pointing out the facts about things like this for a long time here, glad you're around. Cheers! |
And here is why avatars are quite helpful. It can be quite the task to keep track of who said what if you're just looking at names. You guys are misinterpreting his eyeball roll. Check the post above yours CentralCali. |
Thanks murmanjake. Glad you caught that. I thought it was obvious, but then again, this is Dave's and far too many posters are easily confused or just not very sharp to begin with.
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| I sure hope the term joint isn't too confusing for some folks. |
I don't know why I'm enjoying that little jab so much, heh. |
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Quack Addict
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| nukeday wrote: |
| sigmundsmith wrote: |
From nuke day who joined Eslcafe last year:
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I first came to Korea in December of 2005. Don't nitpick with join dates. Dave's ESL isn't Korea.
And this whole "it reflects badly on us" is nonsense. If you think Koreans are foolish and immature enough to generalize the behavior of a few drunk idiots to the wider mass of foreigners, maybe you shouldn't be clamoring for their respect. Likewise, I can control myself and not generalize the behavior that I witnessed last night (and many other nights) onto the general Korean populace.
You also need to get off your high horse with your ideas about Korea somehow belonging to you because you've been around a few years.
Regarding here/hear, reread your OP. |
X2
I came to Korea in 2003 but just 'lurked' around Dave's for along time before I joined. |
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sigmundsmith
Joined: 22 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:55 am Post subject: |
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Wow. I didnt expect this amount of response. I don't visit here too often. But I though I would be polite and response to some of the posts:
| gem wrote: |
| The main reason you have a job here is because of the US military. There would be no Korea without US military protection. You'd be in China or North Korea right now or back home unemployed and whining about something else, so suck it up and deal. |
No!! F U. Why should we deal with it? If English military came into your home town and acted the way some of these guys do would you suck it up? Would your mother or father suck it up? I don't think so!
And you don't know anything about me. I wasn't in a political system that tries to F over their citizens for political gains. So I wasn't desperate for a job like you are.
And of course I quote peoples statements from when they joined eslcafe. Now, is that the culmination of members of this site? Absolutely not. Obviously you have people that may have been here and joined this site and left the EFL EFL EFL EFL (because its not ESL you idiots) and then returned to a later date on the site and in the country. Me I have been continuous so I make assumptions about joining dates and also about maturity and age. And 85% my assumptions would be right.
And if you want to debate me about the notion and differences of ESL and EFL please do so. And I can guarantee you won't win.
Sligo
| Quote: |
| Almost as bad as arrogant pontificating idiots who believe that a few more years experience means the right to a louder voice (how very Korean of you!) I will not say how long i have been here, only that i joined this site some time later. Instead of taking dates as times of joining this site, you assume that this the entire span of people's time here. I have been here longer than most people i know, but i don't believe this removes any right from a newer person of a chance to talk about what they see. Are you telling me you accepted everything as "the local norm" when you first arrived? It is by describing disbelief at a situation, that people can find out why said situation happened. Be this why people feel the need to spit in ashtrays whilst they smoke, or on a deeper note, why the presence of the military is seen as offensive to Korean people. |
And you make some valid points. But look at it this way. How much influence or authority does a freshman have? They are seen as someone who has no respect and knows nothing. I am making assumptions on joining dates. Probably not the most scientific way of interpreting someones experience I will attest to that. But that is what we all have to work with here.
Zyzyfer wrote:
| Quote: |
I think instead of dancing around the issue that seeing some soldiers horsing around makes you feel conflicted about how locals view you (nice sidestep as everyone will focus on the military bashing), and subsequently mention that only Julius has provided a thoughtful response - which judging by the response means you're looking for...suggestions...? - why not make some suggestions about how long-terms can come together? I mean, it has become relatively easy for the F-2 community to pool their resources and intel, and having been here a while myself yet lacking the fabled golden egg F visa, I sometimes wonder how single long-termers can also work together to greater benefit ourselves.
But I have the suspicion you just wanted to gripe about stupid people. |
The thing is the post was not referring to long term people but short term (in this case military). If you are asking me about what long term F-2 communities and their collective resources into the Korean community is involved in let me assure you that is well and truly covered. I am not looking for suggestions I just cant wait until the base leaves here and finally goes to PyeongTaek. And yes, I am griping about stupid American military people, You are absolutely correct!!
| Quote: |
| I've heard Koreans yelling in the middle of the night, and have seen elderly couples stumbling home at 4am. Do you rant and rave about them also, or just chalk it up to "gotta get used to Korean life!" while slamming on foreigners? |
Yeah. But narrow minded. Look back home. If a white man drink driving hits someone and kills them. Not a big deal. But if it is not an American who is drinking and driving and doing the same thing, What happens? Look outside the box sunshine!!
lithium wrote:
| Quote: |
| Well, ok. Maybe some would say that you are incapable of getting a job in the real world. |
Haha. Don't do the republican trick. That is childish. You don't make a point and you don't really support any position.
Lithium wrote:
| Quote: |
By the way, why don't you "man-up" and confront them with your whining instead of complaining on a message board? |
So do you take you talking points from a half term gov.? (and now a half term bus trip) And what would happen if I confronted them? Silly question isn't it. And a silly statement!!
Am I American? Nope. However, my grandfather fought in the Korean war (Colonel). And then my step father is a retired US naval pilot who fought in the Vietnam war and we discuss the ignorant enlisted soldiers. And he is embarrassed by their actions around the various bases and the lose of civility and tradition in the US military (He is involved with the strategic process of national recruitment across all military augments).
So for those of you who think that I am anti American military. That is too easy a response. Am not.
Imagine a foreign naval ship coming to your home town port regularly and acting like some of them do here in Korea. Would you, your mother or father, or community just suck it up? And the old argument, if they weren't here you wouldn't have a job. Sorry, that was 60 years ago, how long do you want to retrieve that?
Nope Im not anti America or military. I just like civility and respect by those in the country the we are guests. And you would expect the same thing in America as well!!
[/quote] |
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:04 am Post subject: |
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Korea might get some of these leftovers
http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=64392
The U.S. government remains committed to the current plan to maintain a forward presence in the region �that is geographically distributed, operationally resilient and politically sustainable,� the official said.
Forget the middle east, Obama announced last night that he's drawing down from 100K troops in Afghanistan to 62K troops. The next big war is going to be in East Asia.
Pack your bags!  |
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murmanjake
Joined: 21 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| sigmundsmith wrote: |
Wow. I didnt expect this amount of response. I don't visit here too often. But I though I would be polite and response to some of the posts:
| gem wrote: |
| The main reason you have a job here is because of the US military. There would be no Korea without US military protection. You'd be in China or North Korea right now or back home unemployed and whining about something else, so suck it up and deal. |
No!! F U. Why should we deal with it? If English military came into your home town and acted the way some of these guys do would you suck it up? Would your mother or father suck it up? I don't think so!
And you don't know anything about me. I wasn't in a political system that tries to F over their citizens for political gains. So I wasn't desperate for a job like you are.
And of course I quote peoples statements from when they joined eslcafe. Now, is that the culmination of members of this site? Absolutely not. Obviously you have people that may have been here and joined this site and left the EFL EFL EFL EFL (because its not ESL you idiots) and then returned to a later date on the site and in the country. Me I have been continuous so I make assumptions about joining dates and also about maturity and age. And 85% my assumptions would be right.
And if you want to debate me about the notion and differences of ESL and EFL please do so. And I can guarantee you won't win.
Sligo
| Quote: |
| Almost as bad as arrogant pontificating idiots who believe that a few more years experience means the right to a louder voice (how very Korean of you!) I will not say how long i have been here, only that i joined this site some time later. Instead of taking dates as times of joining this site, you assume that this the entire span of people's time here. I have been here longer than most people i know, but i don't believe this removes any right from a newer person of a chance to talk about what they see. Are you telling me you accepted everything as "the local norm" when you first arrived? It is by describing disbelief at a situation, that people can find out why said situation happened. Be this why people feel the need to spit in ashtrays whilst they smoke, or on a deeper note, why the presence of the military is seen as offensive to Korean people. |
And you make some valid points. But look at it this way. How much influence or authority does a freshman have? They are seen as someone who has no respect and knows nothing. I am making assumptions on joining dates. Probably not the most scientific way of interpreting someones experience I will attest to that. But that is what we all have to work with here.
Zyzyfer wrote:
| Quote: |
I think instead of dancing around the issue that seeing some soldiers horsing around makes you feel conflicted about how locals view you (nice sidestep as everyone will focus on the military bashing), and subsequently mention that only Julius has provided a thoughtful response - which judging by the response means you're looking for...suggestions...? - why not make some suggestions about how long-terms can come together? I mean, it has become relatively easy for the F-2 community to pool their resources and intel, and having been here a while myself yet lacking the fabled golden egg F visa, I sometimes wonder how single long-termers can also work together to greater benefit ourselves.
But I have the suspicion you just wanted to gripe about stupid people. |
The thing is the post was not referring to long term people but short term (in this case military). If you are asking me about what long term F-2 communities and their collective resources into the Korean community is involved in let me assure you that is well and truly covered. I am not looking for suggestions I just cant wait until the base leaves here and finally goes to PyeongTaek. And yes, I am griping about stupid American military people, You are absolutely correct!!
| Quote: |
| I've heard Koreans yelling in the middle of the night, and have seen elderly couples stumbling home at 4am. Do you rant and rave about them also, or just chalk it up to "gotta get used to Korean life!" while slamming on foreigners? |
Yeah. But narrow minded. Look back home. If a white man drink driving hits someone and kills them. Not a big deal. But if it is not an American who is drinking and driving and doing the same thing, What happens? Look outside the box sunshine!!
lithium wrote:
| Quote: |
| Well, ok. Maybe some would say that you are incapable of getting a job in the real world. |
Haha. Don't do the republican trick. That is childish. You don't make a point and you don't really support any position.
Lithium wrote:
| Quote: |
By the way, why don't you "man-up" and confront them with your whining instead of complaining on a message board? |
So do you take you talking points from a half term gov.? (and now a half term bus trip) And what would happen if I confronted them? Silly question isn't it. And a silly statement!!
Am I American? Nope. However, my grandfather fought in the Korean war (Colonel). And then my step father is a retired US naval pilot who fought in the Vietnam war and we discuss the ignorant enlisted soldiers. And he is embarrassed by their actions around the various bases and the lose of civility and tradition in the US military (He is involved with the strategic process of national recruitment across all military augments).
So for those of you who think that I am anti American military. That is too easy a response. Am not.
Imagine a foreign naval ship coming to your home town port regularly and acting like some of them do here in Korea. Would you, your mother or father, or community just suck it up? And the old argument, if they weren't here you wouldn't have a job. Sorry, that was 60 years ago, how long do you want to retrieve that?
Nope Im not anti America or military. I just like civility and respect by those in the country the we are guests. And you would expect the same thing in America as well!!
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[/quote]
EFL? Pshawww. you don't know jack. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| sigmund: Do you even read what you write or is typing on the keyboard some kind of catharsis for you? You clearly indicated that your complaints are about some of the military, yet you are condemning the entire group. There's a word for that; actually, two words: one begins with P and the other with B. Care to guess what they are? |
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