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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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 Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:14 am Post subject: Perfect tense grammar question |
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Are forgot and got acceptable substitutes for forgotten and gotten?
I think they are used colloquially but I also think the meaning is different when used.
For example, proper usage:
Have you ever forgotten a friend's birthday?
Improper, with a different meaning:
Have you forgot my birthday again?
I think this is improper because it implies we are only talking about now.
Same with got vs. gotten
Have you got a cigarette?
Talking about right now, present tense seems more appropriate.
Do you have a cigarette?
Am I out to lunch?
Korean books are teaching that got / gotten forgot / forgotten are completely interchangeable in the perfect tense.
Thanks in advance.... |
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different
Joined: 22 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:01 am Post subject: |
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To my ears:
Have you ever forgotten a friend's birthday? ---> Sounds correct
Have you forgot my birthday again? ---> Sounds wrong. To my ears it should be "Have you forgotten my birthday again?"
The present perfect has several different uses. The first sentence above is about life experience. The second sentence is about events that just occurred. There's no logical relationship between those two uses of the present perfect, but they are both uses of the present perfect.
"Have you got a cigarette?" is a perfectly acceptable sounding question which means "Do you have a cigarette?" In British English that type of question is more common than in American English, but to Americans it still sounds fine. But "Have you got a cigarette?" is NOT the present perfect. A question with "Have you gotten...?" would be the present perfect.
It seems that those Korean grammar books still have mistakes in them. But so do online ESL websites! There are a lot of little websites out there that have grammar explanations, and sometimes the explanations are just wrong. Close, but wrong.
A good reference book, by the way, is Michael Swan's Practical English Usage. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:27 am Post subject: |
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I remember when I first got into EFL teaching and this came up.
The "Headway" series has some really insightful lessons on this topic.
Check out their Elementary and or pre-intermediate level books.
"have got" is such a commonly used part of the English language that I think
we hinder students progress by not talking about it. Many traditional textbooks focus on "have" and leave out "have got", but if you pay attention to actual usage, we use "have got" a lot more in real life.
I've gotta go. = I have to go.
Which one sounds more natural to you? |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Perfect tense grammar question |
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| T-J wrote: |
Are forgot and got acceptable substitutes for forgotten and gotten?
I think they are used colloquially but I also think the meaning is different when used.
For example, proper usage:
Have you ever forgotten a friend's birthday?
Improper, with a different meaning:
Have you forgot my birthday again?
I think this is improper because it implies we are only talking about now.
Same with got vs. gotten
Have you got a cigarette?
Talking about right now, present tense seems more appropriate.
Do you have a cigarette?
Am I out to lunch?
Korean books are teaching that got / gotten forgot / forgotten are completely interchangeable in the perfect tense.
Thanks in advance.... |
completely interchangeable....not quite.
The posters above give some good explanations.
As for the example:
Have you got a cigarette?
Have you gotten a cigarette?...try that for interchangeable. 
Have you got = Do you have
Have you gotten = Did you get
Have you gotten yourself into trouble, again?
Did you get yourself into trouble, again?
Have you forgotten= Did you forget...not...Have you forgot...if this is considered colloquial...then maybe...just sounds like slang to me.
...that's all for now...I gotta go.
The joys of grammaring.  |
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FMPJ
Joined: 03 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| "Got" is correct in the UK, not in US English, though. This actually comes out on US standardized tests. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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'have got' is interchangeable with 'have'. Many grammar books cover this, and some ESL conversation books also, although it tends not to come up much in Korea.
Hence 'Have you got a cigarette?' is not Present Perfect but Simple Present. Please don't confuse your students by presenting it as something it's not. 'Have you gotten a cigarette?' means something different altogether.
As for 'forgot' and 'forgotten', 'forgot' might be used sometimes in certain dialects in certain contexts but this non-standard usage has no business being in an ESL textbook.
Are you sure Korean textbooks really equate these words? |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: Perfect tense grammar question |
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| T-J wrote: |
Are forgot and got acceptable substitutes for forgotten and gotten?
I think they are used colloquially but I also think the meaning is different when used.
For example, proper usage:
Have you ever forgotten a friend's birthday?
Improper, with a different meaning:
Have you forgot my birthday again?
I think this is improper because it implies we are only talking about now.
Same with got vs. gotten
Have you got a cigarette?
Talking about right now, present tense seems more appropriate.
Do you have a cigarette?
Am I out to lunch?
Korean books are teaching that got / gotten forgot / forgotten are completely interchangeable in the perfect tense.
Thanks in advance.... |
This is the simple past versus the present perfect, isn't it?
Like simple past: I forgot.
Present perfect: I have forgotten.
Same with �got�.
I got�.
I have gotten�
Last edited by isitts on Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:55 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
'have got' is interchangeable with 'have'. Many grammar books cover this, and some ESL conversation books also, although it tends not to come up much in Korea.
Hence 'Have you got a cigarette?' is not Present Perfect but Simple Present. Please don't confuse your students by presenting it as something it's not. 'Have you gotten a cigarette?' means something different altogether.
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Oooo. Good point.  |
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| isitts wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
'have got' is interchangeable with 'have'. Many grammar books cover this, and some ESL conversation books also, although it tends not to come up much in Korea.
Hence 'Have you got a cigarette?' is not Present Perfect but Simple Present. Please don't confuse your students by presenting it as something it's not. 'Have you gotten a cigarette?' means something different altogether.
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Oooo. Good point. |
I understand that. However if Got is an acceptable substitute for the perfect tense it could be.
Have you got the mail? (Present tense)= Do you have the mail?
Have you got the mail? (perfect tense)= Have you gotten the mail?
I believe that it is acceptable British English. Where in the U.S. we use gotten to avoid such confusion. |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| T-J wrote: |
I understand that. However if Got is an acceptable substitute for the perfect tense it could be.
Have you got the mail? (Present tense)= Do you have the mail?
Have you got the mail? (perfect tense)= Have you gotten the mail?
I believe that it is acceptable British English. Where in the U.S. we use gotten to avoid such confusion. |
Ugh.. This is quickly becoming an addicting thread 
This one seems fine.
�Have you got the mail? (Present tense)= Do you have the mail?�
But this one doesn�t.
�Have you got the mail? (perfect tense)= Have you gotten the mail?�
It�s my understanding that �Have you got the mail?� is asking, �Do you have it in your hands now?� whereas, �Have you gotten the mail?� means, �Did you go out to the mail box, pick up the mail, and bring it back here?�
The difference may not be that important as far as what�s being asked (Do you have the mail?), but they are communicating something different. So I wouldn�t say they are interchangeable.
I�d always thought that British English was a bit more particular about the subtle differences between the simple past and present perfect than American English. (I say this as an American). |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| T-J wrote: |
| isitts wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
'have got' is interchangeable with 'have'. Many grammar books cover this, and some ESL conversation books also, although it tends not to come up much in Korea.
Hence 'Have you got a cigarette?' is not Present Perfect but Simple Present. Please don't confuse your students by presenting it as something it's not. 'Have you gotten a cigarette?' means something different altogether.
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Oooo. Good point. |
I understand that. However if Got is an acceptable substitute for the perfect tense it could be.
Have you got the mail? (Present tense)= Do you have the mail?
Have you got the mail? (perfect tense)= Have you gotten the mail?
I believe that it is acceptable British English. Where in the U.S. we use gotten to avoid such confusion. |
'Have you got the mail?' as an equivalent of 'Do you have the mail?' is fine, and common in the UK. I suspect it would be fine in many parts of the USA also (?). However, 'Have you got the mail?' as an equivalent of 'Have you gotten the mail?' would seem to me a little odd simply because it's hard to think of a situation in which you might use it. It would be like 'Have you retrieved the mail?' - possible but uncommon.
It is true that in British English the good old Anglo-Saxon 'gotten' has fallen out of use and we use 'got' instead, so there is nothing intrinsically wrong with either 'Have you gotten' or 'Have you got' the mail; it's just hard to imagine when you might want to say such a thing. On the other hand, if you said, for example, 'Has your job gotten boring?' the British English equivalent would be 'Has your job got boring?' and that would be fine.
| isitts wrote: |
| I�d always thought that British English was a bit more particular about the subtle differences between the simple past and present perfect than American English. (I say this as an American). |
I believe it's true that the Present Perfect is more frequently used in British English. The classic example is that we would automatically say 'Have you had lunch?' whereas Americans more often say 'Did you have lunch?'. It's not a question of accuracy so much as a matter of the time frame in which you ... frame the question. If you use the Present Perfect, it implies that we are still within the time period in which lunch might be had; if you use the Simple Past, the time period is removed from the present but still, due to the context, a recent period. Either could be correct depending on how you think of 'lunchtime'.
It's arguable that the British are 'more particular' in that this is a question you would more probably ask when there was still a possibility of having lunch, so that if someone said 'No' you would suggest eating. The Present Perfect would seem more appropriate to that situation, but it doesn't mean that using the Simple Past is wrong.
Of course, a question like 'Did you have lunch?' has a pretty obvious time frame within the context (i.e.'today') but if a student hits you with 'Did you see a movie?' out of the blue and out of context, both Brits and Yanks can be left feeling bemused and wanting to ask 'When do you mean?'. It's pretty hard to explain to students why one is ok but the other isn't, which is why, when I teach the Present Perfect, I avoid telling students that 'Did you have lunch?' is fine with Americans and hope to heck no one brings it up. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| but if a student hits you with 'Did you see a movie?' out of the blue and out of context, both Brits and Yanks can be left feeling bemused and wanting to ask 'When do you mean?'. |
I take it you mean 'Did you see a particular movie (e.g. Titanic) as 'Have you seen a movie?' out of the blue would also be confusing. In the old days before video recorders and the like, 'Did you see Casablanca?' for example, would have been acceptable as the context would have been obvious - it was on one of the three tv channels the night before. Whereas Did you see ....name of contemporary movie......? would probably not, as that would have suggested it was on at the only cinema in town and was now not showing. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| but if a student hits you with 'Did you see a movie?' out of the blue and out of context, both Brits and Yanks can be left feeling bemused and wanting to ask 'When do you mean?'. |
I take it you mean 'Did you see a particular movie (e.g. Titanic) as 'Have you seen a movie?' out of the blue would also be confusing. In the old days before video recorders and the like, 'Did you see Casablanca?' for example, would have been acceptable as the context would have been obvious - it was on one of the three tv channels the night before. Whereas Did you see ....name of contemporary movie......? would probably not, as that would have suggested it was on at the only cinema in town and was now not showing. |
Good point. As you said, 'Did you see <contemporary movie name>?' out of context would be a better example.
I guess the general rule students should remember is that use of the Simple Past carries an obligatory definite past time frame that must be specified if it isn't clear from context. |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
Good point. As you said, 'Did you see <contemporary movie name>?' out of context would be a better example. |
Well, that's the main issue right there. Context. The original question has very limited context, which is why I generally don't like questions like this.
If the question is whether "forgot" and "forgotten" can be used interchangeably, then, sure. As long as we all agree that this is grammatically acceptable, then it is. But that has nothing to do with what is trying to be communicated in a particular context.
I've been asked several times by Koreans, "Is this sentence grammatically correct?" I say, "Yes, but what is the situation? What are you trying to communicate? Because it can be grammatically correct in a vacuum and still be wrong in a given context."
But even to look at "a given context" as though it were some mechanical part that can be isolated from a communicative machine is a bit of a strange perspective. Context is continuous.
For example, I get asked every week, "Did you see a movie?" But I don't find it strange or unusual because the person who asks me knows I like movies and watch one or two every weekend. So it can be implied that she means "last weekend" or "since we last met".
But it's hard to put all that information into a test question.
By the way, I'm not knocking the OP's question. I can't keep track of all the correct grammatical forms in English. And I didn't know "got" and "gotten" could be used interchangeably in the instances mentioned. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| For example, I get asked every week, "Did you see a movie?" But I don't find it strange or unusual because the person who asks me knows I like movies and watch one or two every weekend. |
You shouldn't find it strange. They are your students, they in theory would be keeping tabs.
It isn't because they know you. You aren't that special 
Now, if you were a complete stranger, maybe they would ask "Have you" instead if "Did you". |
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