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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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 Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:19 am Post subject: Re: Trust issues. |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
Wrong -- not cultural at all -- it is your boss being a tool. I had a very similar situation happen to me in the US -- kicked a kid out of class for swearing (the f-bomb, no less!), and had the principal bring the kid right back to class, telling me that the kid said he didn't say it...and sure enough, the principal polled the class to see if anyone else heard him say it.... As the kid I kicked out was also a bully, no one in the class would speak against him...and so the kid got put back in his seat....
It sucks, but it isn't a cultural thing. It is just that your boss is a tool -- happens everywhere, and it sucks everywhere that it happens.... |
Gadfly, I sure hope you had it out with your principal afterwards. It's sheer lunacy to not support the teacher in an instance like you experienced. For what motive would any teacher make up a story like that?
The principal also surely knew you as an upstanding man of morals....It soon gets around the school if you're a chancer...within months if not weeks.
I would have said,'When I say something is so, then it is so, I don't care who you are.'
In my schooling, this turn of events would have been unthinkable. It's only in Korea when such a tribal dynamic bears its full weight. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:03 am Post subject: |
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Shifty,
No, I didn't have it out with my principal at that time -- I was in my first week of teaching at a Houston public school, and I owed too much money and was too broke to lose my first real teaching job....
I posted my own US experience to point out that this is not a cultural thing -- it is a person being a tool. Happens everywhere, unfortunately....
I don't get your "only in Korea" statement though -- my own experience of this type of behavior was NOT in Korea....
Anyway, no, I never got to confront the fellow over his stupidity...I DID get to be a thorn in his side on a couple of occasions, but since they always worked out worse for me, I learned to quit rocking that particular boat, and fly under his radar. I may have mentioned that I hated US school politics, and find Korean hakwons remarkably above-board and easy to deal with in comparison. Wonderland was a joy compared to the crap that I dealt with in the US.... |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
Shifty,
No, I didn't have it out with my principal at that time -- I was in my first week of teaching at a Houston public school, and I owed too much money and was too broke to lose my first real teaching job.... |
I'm guessing a power play....you a rank raw junior teacher in his very first week...he was probably deputised to keep tabs on you and smelled blood.. You to boot oozing vulnerability with your debt issues. I'm sure I woulda reacted same as you.
| Quote: |
| I posted my own US experience to point out that this is not a cultural thing -- Happens everywhere, unfortunately.... |
To be honest Gadfly I'm not convinced, despite that I do respect you on this board. I'm sure the experience of being taken to task in your first week as a bright eyed and bushy-tailed greenhorn must have held a lasting impression.
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| I DID get to be a thorn in his side on a couple of occasions, but since they always worked out worse for me, I learned to quit rocking that particular boat, and fly under his radar. |
He had advantage of seniority and wiles over you, you were bound to lose.
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| I may have mentioned that I hated US school politics, and find Korean hakwons remarkably above-board and easy to deal with in comparison. Wonderland was a joy compared to the crap that I dealt with in the US.... |
I can understand why you feel Korean hakwons are more black and white...actually I'll agree with that preference...it's one of the abiding fascinations of Korea. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| shifty wrote: |
| thegadfly wrote: |
Shifty,
No, I didn't have it out with my principal at that time -- I was in my first week of teaching at a Houston public school, and I owed too much money and was too broke to lose my first real teaching job.... |
I'm guessing a power play....you a rank raw junior teacher in his very first week...he was probably deputised to keep tabs on you and smelled blood.. You to boot oozing vulnerability with your debt issues. I'm sure I woulda reacted same as you.
| Quote: |
| I posted my own US experience to point out that this is not a cultural thing -- Happens everywhere, unfortunately.... |
To be honest Gadfly I'm not convinced, despite that I do respect you on this board. I'm sure the experience of being taken to task in your first week as a bright eyed and bushy-tailed greenhorn must have held a lasting impression.
| Quote: |
| I DID get to be a thorn in his side on a couple of occasions, but since they always worked out worse for me, I learned to quit rocking that particular boat, and fly under his radar. |
He had advantage of seniority and wiles over you, you were bound to lose.
| Quote: |
| I may have mentioned that I hated US school politics, and find Korean hakwons remarkably above-board and easy to deal with in comparison. Wonderland was a joy compared to the crap that I dealt with in the US.... |
I can understand why you feel Korean hakwons are more black and white...actually I'll agree with that preference...it's one of the abiding fascinations of Korea. |
Shifty,
Well, anecdotal evidence may not be convincing to you, which is more than just fine...but I am offering my experience as a rebuttal to an overgeneralization and faulty conclusion presented by another poster -- namely, that such behavior is somehow a "Korean" thing.
I have actually had a similar experience in EVERY school I have worked at in the US, not just the first, and not just when I was new...I simply learned how to "get around it" after the first time.
In total, the situation of kicking a student out and having a principal bring the student back into class has happened to me 3 times. Twice, the principal asked the class if things happened the way I reported, and once the principal didn't even ask -- just returned the kid and told me I couldn't kick him out. 3 different principals at 3 different schools, all in America.
In Korea, the situation has NEVER arisen. My kicked out kids have STAYED kicked out.
It isn't a "cultural" thing, but it is a "gutless, trying-not-to-upset-any-parents" thing. School officials everywhere act to try to prevent parental complaints, and perhaps they are right to do so, but getting your legs cut out from under you sucks when it happens....
For many posters on this board, Korea is the only place they have taught, and they therefore label the problems they have in the schools as a "Korean" thing, when really the problems are just a "teaching" thing. I absolutely love teaching -- I have never regretted choosing it as a career -- but there are certain indignities and offenses one must endure to keep doing it, no matter WHERE one teaches. Doctors get late night calls, lawyers are the butt of many jokes, nurses get talked down to by doctors and yelled at by patients and their families, and teachers catch crap from parents and administrators....
(Actually, I have found that when nurses and teachers get together and vent about their jobs, they make many similar complaints, moreso than just normal job-kvetching.) |
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Ramen
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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in conclusion, it only happens in the u.s. and korea. 
when i was going to school we never got kicked out. we got whooped instead. and got more of it when i went home for getting whooped at school. |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:56 am Post subject: |
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what every teacher must consider is the Korean co teacher would like the native teacher to control the class. Your co teacher wants you to run your own class and not have to 'wipe your ass'
If the native teacher rules the class with an iron fist, and punishes the slightest hint of insubordination, the co teacher will respect you, and you will slowly go up the food chain, holidays, unspoken bonuses, perks you didn't know existed.
And if the students are overly confident.... you have got a stick. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
The Op said the boss brought the student back to the class after 1 minute.
I can only speculate on why that would be, but my first thoughts are that the boss is too lazy to deal with the student. He just wanted to toss the student back in the class and let the teacher deal with the consequences.
What the boss did was tantamount to accusing the FT of lying ... to the whole class.
If you think this would not be "humiliating" to the teacher, I have to question your reasoning.
Luckily for the FT, the rest of the class supported him.
If the boss doesn't trust the teacher's judgment 3/4's of the way through the contract, there's really no hope.
As I said before, there are ways to go about these things, ways that are less
"undermining".
The boss has Zero managerial skills but that's typical for hagwon bosses.
What happened shows me that the school has no system/ plan in place for dealing with disruptive students. He just expects the teacher to deal with it. |
You are jumping to conclusions far too quickly I think.
From what the OP said, it could be the boss being an idiot or it could be the boss supporting his teacher.
You cannot conclusively conclude that the boss was undermining the teacher there. There is also no trust issue here if the boss did this to support his teacher.
From what I read of the OP and follow up post, the Boss did not critize the teacher at all, did not contradict him in front of his students.
He was told this teacher kicked a disruptive student out of his class, talked to that student to hear his story (that is normal by the way) and then likely told the class that this sort of behavior was not acceptable in class. He likely asked the students what they thought to reinforce his point.
the OP from his own admission does not speak or understand Korean so how the heck does he know what was said. He claims to have followed the conversation...well sorry but the conversation could have been gthe boss asking each kid if the disruptive behavior by their classmate was acceptable in order to make his point.
You see, the boss supervises the teacher but is also accountable to the parents who send their kids to his school.
Sorry but some of you are really jumping the gun here in your hurry to lambast this employer...then again this is Daves! |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| Malislamusrex wrote: |
| the co teacher will respect you, and you will slowly go up the food chain, holidays, unspoken bonuses, perks you didn't know existed. |
BS |
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Ramen
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| Malislamusrex wrote: |
what every teacher must consider is the Korean co teacher would like the native teacher to control the class. Your co teacher wants you to run your own class and not have to 'wipe your ass'
If the native teacher rules the class with an iron fist, and punishes the slightest hint of insubordination, the co teacher will respect you, and you will slowly go up the food chain, holidays, unspoken bonuses, perks you didn't know existed.
And if the students are overly confident.... you have got a stick. |
you must be handsome and charismatic like me. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
The Op said the boss brought the student back to the class after 1 minute.
I can only speculate on why that would be, but my first thoughts are that the boss is too lazy to deal with the student. He just wanted to toss the student back in the class and let the teacher deal with the consequences.
What the boss did was tantamount to accusing the FT of lying ... to the whole class.
If you think this would not be "humiliating" to the teacher, I have to question your reasoning.
Luckily for the FT, the rest of the class supported him.
If the boss doesn't trust the teacher's judgment 3/4's of the way through the contract, there's really no hope.
As I said before, there are ways to go about these things, ways that are less
"undermining".
The boss has Zero managerial skills but that's typical for hagwon bosses.
What happened shows me that the school has no system/ plan in place for dealing with disruptive students. He just expects the teacher to deal with it. |
You are jumping to conclusions far too quickly I think.
From what the OP said, it could be the boss being an idiot or it could be the boss supporting his teacher.
You cannot conclusively conclude that the boss was undermining the teacher there. There is also no trust issue here if the boss did this to support his teacher.
From what I read of the OP and follow up post, the Boss did not critize the teacher at all, did not contradict him in front of his students.
He was told this teacher kicked a disruptive student out of his class, talked to that student to hear his story (that is normal by the way) and then likely told the class that this sort of behavior was not acceptable in class. He likely asked the students what they thought to reinforce his point.
the OP from his own admission does not speak or understand Korean so how the heck does he know what was said. He claims to have followed the conversation...well sorry but the conversation could have been gthe boss asking each kid if the disruptive behavior by their classmate was acceptable in order to make his point.
You see, the boss supervises the teacher but is also accountable to the parents who send their kids to his school.
Sorry but some of you are really jumping the gun here in your hurry to lambast this employer...then again this is Daves! |
Ok you win. He didn't confront the teacher in front of the class. But what he did do is just as bad. Even if the boss was well-intentioned and thought he was doing the right thing, the results are the same. He made the teacher look and feel like he was being accused of lying in front of the whole class.
And I whole heartedly agree with The Gadfly above when he wrote:
It isn't a "cultural" thing, but it is a "gutless, trying-not-to-upset-any-parents" thing. School officials everywhere act to try to prevent parental complaints, and perhaps they are right to do so, but getting your legs cut out from under you sucks when it happens....
I really think the boss/principal should be aware enough to know how to deal with situations like this without upsetting the teacher.
Was the teacher upset in this case? I think that's easy to conclude just by reading the original post.
Was there a better way the boss could have handled the situation?
I think so, he should have waited till the class was over and interviewed the teacher and students separately to determine what had happened.
The OP said that the student had a history of being problematic, the boss knew that, yet the boss chose to stop the class, haul the teacher out, question him, then question the class.
That in itself leads me to believe that the boss wanted to send a message to the teacher.
The message being;
"Don't kick students out, for any reason".
I don't agree with that at all, I think teachers have every right to remove disruptive students and administrators/bosses should have some kind of policy/plans in place to deal with those kinds of situations.
Last edited by some waygug-in on Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:57 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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PastorYoon
Joined: 25 Jun 2010
Location: Sea of Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:57 am Post subject: |
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If I get the feeling that they don't appreciate me kicking the student out of the room completely, I just pause my lesson and scoot a chair over into the back corner of the room, then tell the kid "Anja. Chogee. Ji-Gum." Sometimes I have to do this to 5-7 kids, and there are not enough corners for the chairs. At that point, I have to get creative. If the personnel is picky, or if the parents have more pull than the administration (which I pick up on quickly), I make sure that I don't put the kids in the hallway. From my personal experience (3+ years), nobody can complain that the student missed a lesson if the kid is still in the room. If the kids are moved behind the main group of students, they still lose face (which is the point). If the disobedience continues, I take away said chair. If the kid screams or anything beyond that, they're gone, and I don't think twice about it. In addition, I wear a whistle around my neck to every class. I put up with very little. I spend $60 per month for the materials that I use in my classes. They are fun. There are games and activities (video books, etc.) that I use in every class, and the "bad kids" have no chance of discrediting me.
"Anja!" |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:51 am Post subject: |
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I like your thinking.
+1 |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| PastorYoon wrote: |
| If the kid screams or anything beyond that, they're gone. |
I'm in accordance with your approach and even feel it could be beefed up some more.
Thing is, what you gonna do if only a minute later the boss is shooing the delinquent back in the door and through the glass window you espy the 'last touch' rapport they have between them?
The OP is talking hakwons here. Not PS's when a stick can be brandished as a previous poster advised.
The hakwon first and foremost is a business. In that business the NET is a necessary evil and by extension often treated as expendable in grand shizophrenic view. Especially that he/she's seen as such strain on resource and often appears/is incompetent.
Korean business ideas are way, way behind the West.
The early eighties already in South Africa we were getting lectured on what constitutes assets in the business. From henceforth resigning staff had to be treated far more equitably. Not only equitably but as valued member of the team/family. Follow up letters and goodwill cards.
They had realised that a malcontent could have wide-ranging influence. After a period in his new position the employee might look back on his former job with favor and even return to the company, or at least influence many others as to its merits.
Koreans have an intractable worldview and ingrained rigid cultural HR practices that won't have these ideas seeing the light of day anytime soon.
Is why they have to pay more for your services. Where else can you get commensurate pay of a degreed person simply using mother tongue? |
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PastorYoon
Joined: 25 Jun 2010
Location: Sea of Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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I've had KO-teachers (who were out of the room at the time, chatting & having a nice little coffee break) who have noticed that the kid is in the hallway. Suddenly, when other personnel sees the kid in the hallway, the KO-teacher becomes SO INTERESTED!  What a joke. It's funny because they usually don't give a damn even if the kids are screaming and throwing things. The KO-teachers have at times tried to bring the students back into the room - to their chair - but I have told the teacher "No. Penalty." Koreans seem to pick up on the word 'penalty', even if they don't speak a lick of English.
"패널티"
(Google Translate is great.)  |
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