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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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 Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Stout wrote: |
| [K-pop's magnates] don't allow alternative music scenes to exist outside of Hongdae... |
This is a lie. While Hongdae has by far the largest music scene that isn't mainstream, it is certainly not the only one, and even those artists that play most often in Hongdae often play elsewhere. You make it sound like Kpop managers are going around to live music places and breaking kneecaps. |
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Stout
Joined: 28 May 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Of course they play elsewhere, but if you define a music scene as a situation where the music is part of a vibrant culture strong enough to support the artisits' activities and livelihoods, even Hongdae doesn't qualify, as almost none of the 'alternative' musicians can survive by their art alone there. And the reason is that K-pop so thoroughly dominates that no alternative label can hope to generate enough revenue to allow anyone on their roster to make a decent living through music alone. It wasn't so long ago that a major label stateside or in europe typically supported a fairly diverse roster of rock, pop, dance, alternative, jazz, blues, classical, world music, etc. The SM Entertainments here obviously don't give a hay about making non-pop-oriented music a part of Hallyu, nor have they ever
Another interesting thing that you'll find happening in Hongdae is that the clubs which produce fairly large festivals are in-debted to government financial support. Anything considered too risque or 'not normal' by conservative Korean standards generally doesn't have a chance, and can only hope to attract a small contingent of fans in B and C level dingy basement venues, where their payment for a decent performance typically translates to a an after-show beer or some sangyeopsal. |
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Koreadays
Joined: 20 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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why do the headlines, exaggerate
KPOP now in England after storming Europe?
storming Europe? 7000 people?? is that really shattering numbers? and its's not europe.. it's france.. lets see how they do in Italy, spain, germany first..
ok two shows.. 14.000? or was it 3.500 per show?
still.. hardly earth shattering...
how many bands come to Korea and do 10.000 easy at chamsil indoor stadium?
K pop... can't believe the news channels ran with it..
didn't hear much about the huge concert in south East Asia for the K band last month.. huge numbers turned out to see the FAMOUS K pop idols..
Indonesia with their 200 million strong population , come out in numbers ..to see glimpses of their favorite K pop Idols.. yes that's right folks..
all 3000 of them.. mostly made up of Korean students living there..
I remember I read an interview with the owner of YG Family..
he said he tried for 10 years to break into the American market with his singers.. but just couldn't... he said. Radio dj's just wouldn't play his music.. hahahahahaha
yeah , which DJ is gonna play.." oh and next up straight from Korea we have... SEVEN.. ummmmmmmm hello... where all our listeners go? |
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RangerMcGreggor
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Stout wrote: |
| Of course they play elsewhere, but if you define a music scene as a situation where the music is part of a vibrant culture strong enough to support the artisits' activities and livelihoods |
This is true nearly everywhere. Most bands/artists in the USA underground struggle and never go anywhere. I'm from the northwest (Where indie music is a big part of the culture) and for every band and/or artist that manage to survive there are hundreds that fall apart and never go anywhere.
| Quote: |
| And the reason is that K-pop so thoroughly dominates that no alternative label can hope to generate enough revenue to allow anyone on their roster to make a decent living through music alone. |
You do realize this is true in America as well? There is a reason why most artists leave indie labels as soon as they get to the chance. Heck, most indie labels rely heavily on financial/logistical support from major companies and many are just subsidiaries of a major label company now. There are very very few true "indie" labels that are generally pretty successful right now. |
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Stout
Joined: 28 May 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
| Stout wrote: |
| Of course they play elsewhere, but if you define a music scene as a situation where the music is part of a vibrant culture strong enough to support the artisits' activities and livelihoods |
This is true nearly everywhere. Most bands/artists in the USA underground struggle and never go anywhere. I'm from the northwest (Where indie music is a big part of the culture) and for every band and/or artist that manage to survive there are hundreds that fall apart and never go anywhere.
| Quote: |
| And the reason is that K-pop so thoroughly dominates that no alternative label can hope to generate enough revenue to allow anyone on their roster to make a decent living through music alone. |
You do realize this is true in America as well? There is a reason why most artists leave indie labels as soon as they get to the chance. Heck, most indie labels rely heavily on financial/logistical support from major companies and many are just subsidiaries of a major label company now. There are very very few true "indie" labels that are generally pretty successful right now. |
I agree with you on the above. The difference with Korea is there is virtually no opportunity for an indie band to be signed by a major in Korea, unless they get some plastic surgery and begin practicing their dance moves. At least in other countries there is a real possibility to make it based on one's own original material and vision. And in the mean time the independant scenes of a Portland or Seattle, Osaka, or Tokyo are infinitely more vibrant and diverse. Heck, even pint-sized Kyoto pisses all over Seoul. |
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Stout
Joined: 28 May 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| Stout wrote: |
| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
| Stout wrote: |
| Of course they play elsewhere, but if you define a music scene as a situation where the music is part of a vibrant culture strong enough to support the artisits' activities and livelihoods |
This is true nearly everywhere. Most bands/artists in the USA underground struggle and never go anywhere. I'm from the northwest (Where indie music is a big part of the culture) and for every band and/or artist that manage to survive there are hundreds that fall apart and never go anywhere.
| Quote: |
| And the reason is that K-pop so thoroughly dominates that no alternative label can hope to generate enough revenue to allow anyone on their roster to make a decent living through music alone. |
You do realize this is true in America as well? There is a reason why most artists leave indie labels as soon as they get to the chance. Heck, most indie labels rely heavily on financial/logistical support from major companies and many are just subsidiaries of a major label company now. There are very very few true "indie" labels that are generally pretty successful right now. |
I agree with you on the above. The difference with Korea is there is virtually no opportunity for an indie band to be signed by a major in Korea, unless they get some plastic surgery and begin practicing their dance moves. At least in other countries there is a real possibility to make it based on one's own original material and vision. And in the mean time the independant scenes of a Portland or Seattle, Osaka, or Tokyo are infinitely more vibrant and diverse. Hell, even pint-sized Kyoto pisses all over Seoul. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Stout wrote: |
Of course they play elsewhere, but if you define a music scene as a situation where the music is part of a vibrant culture strong enough to support the artisits' activities and livelihoods, even Hongdae doesn't qualify, as almost none of the 'alternative' musicians can survive by their art alone there. And the reason is that K-pop so thoroughly dominates that no alternative label can hope to generate enough revenue to allow anyone on their roster to make a decent living through music alone. It wasn't so long ago that a major label stateside or in europe typically supported a fairly diverse roster of rock, pop, dance, alternative, jazz, blues, classical, world music, etc. The SM Entertainments here obviously don't give a hay about making non-pop-oriented music a part of Hallyu, nor have they ever
Another interesting thing that you'll find happening in Hongdae is that the clubs which produce fairly large festivals are in-debted to government financial support. Anything considered too risque or 'not normal' by conservative Korean standards generally doesn't have a chance, and can only hope to attract a small contingent of fans in B and C level dingy basement venues, where their payment for a decent performance typically translates to a an after-show beer or some sangyeopsal. |
I think part of this is that if there is one kind of music where the average schmoe won't instantly turn it off if its not in their language, its pop dance music.
And again, trot and classical are big too. Not just Kpop.
So do you have beef with rap labels back home that don't look to sign rock artists or jazz musicians? Why so angry that SM just focuses on pop? |
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warmachinenkorea
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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People grow up believing what someone has told them. Usually whatever their parents or the media says. For me my father and uncles listened to rock and blues. Music was a few guys with long hair playing guitar, bass and drums, riffs, solos etc... With my grandfather it was old country, and bluegrass. I went to church and heard gospel, with my older cousins I was introduced to N.W.A and rap. I never really got into pop there was nobody in my life that listened to it.
Same here and in America. Korean kids listen to what they are indirectly told to by the media and culture.
No one in America wants to here someone sing in another language. And for the most part they don't like over produced people. I didn't say they didn't like produced just over produced.
Don't kid yourself and think that anyone can be a big hit on their terms. To be commercially viable(making it) you must do things you don't want to do. You will do what you told or you will be let go. |
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minos
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Location: kOREA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Good Korean music does find a market overseas:
House Rulez and Classizquai come to mind. Asians groups are popular in the Jazz scene. They just need to have more groups and more hits(in english too). I've heard of Japanese rock bands as well back in the states. They just need some english songs.
K-pop blows over the long run(0 substance, short shelf life, god awful english, lame rappers with no substance). If a US record level wanted a K-pop song on Airwaves, they'll just buy the rights and have a US based grouped make their own version.
Hollywood does the same with Korean horror movie remakes. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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KPop might have a chance in other parts of the world where people are okay with listening to music in another language.
But not in the anglosphere, where its English or else, with the exception of dancey stuff.
I really don't see KPop doing well outside of Asia. They might have had a chance in the Middle East, but they are too 'sexy' now. |
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Koreadays
Joined: 20 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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the music industry folk here know they can't break into USA,
they have sent their best..
BOA, RAIN, SEVEN, WONDER GIRLS, etc etc..
none of them could really penetrate the market and make a real impact
so they all came back here where they are famous and treated like GODS
the only real ethnic group which does HUGE sales in the USA is the Latin market, but they are well set up, with the first A HUGE latin community, latin grammy awards, etc etc.. they also sing in English,
the only way Korean bands are gonna make it in USA is if they start doing their routines in English, their fast dance moves from the guys, sexy moves and more skin from the girls and with some Catchy English riffs...
but still.. it's hard to see mainstream American girls putting up pictures on their walls of JO KWAN from 2am..
In korea they are not selling musicians they are selling SEX!
the girls are dressed up like Hookers and paraded around the stage and singing some catchy tune.. but frankly its more eye candy than anything else.. |
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RangerMcGreggor
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Stout wrote: |
I agree with you on the above. The difference with Korea is there is virtually no opportunity for an indie band to be signed by a major in Korea, unless they get some plastic surgery and begin practicing their dance moves. At least in other countries there is a real possibility to make it based on one's own original material and vision. |
You're joking right? Many indie artists that go mainstream often change their sound radically and get the "sell-out" label (See: Jimmy Eat World, AFI, Offspring.. so many more). This is even worse in hip-hop where underground rappers are often forced to either to become
A.) A pop music act (See Black Eyed Peas)
B.) Pretend to become gangsta
Remember, Korean labels are essentially following the models that other countries have done for years. |
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Stout
Joined: 28 May 2011
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
| Stout wrote: |
I agree with you on the above. The difference with Korea is there is virtually no opportunity for an indie band to be signed by a major in Korea, unless they get some plastic surgery and begin practicing their dance moves. At least in other countries there is a real possibility to make it based on one's own original material and vision. |
You're joking right? Many indie artists that go mainstream often change their sound radically and get the "sell-out" label (See: Jimmy Eat World, AFI, Offspring.. so many more). This is even worse in hip-hop where underground rappers are often forced to either to become
A.) A pop music act (See Black Eyed Peas)
B.) Pretend to become gangsta
Remember, Korean labels are essentially following the models that other countries have done for years. |
Even in their "sold-out" mode, the Offspring, Black Eyed Peas et al have more in their left nut than all of the K-pop kingdom's pretty surgically-enhanced cookie cut-outs.
Black Eyed Peas-
After Eazy-E died in 1995, Atban Klann reformed and changed their name to Black Eyed Pods, and then Black Eyed Peas. Dante Santiago was replaced with Jaime Gomez (Taboo), and Kim Hill became a steady background singer. Unlike many hip-hop acts, they chose to perform with a live band and adopted a musical and clothing style that differed wildly from the "Gangsta Rap" sounds of Los Angeles-based hip-hop acts at the time.
The Offspring-
The band was formed by guitarist Dexter Holland and bassist Greg Kriesel, who met on their high school cross-country team, under the name "Manic Subsidal". The decision to form a band came outside of a Social Distortion concert when both were refused entry.[10] Doug Thompson was added for vocals,[12] and Kevin "Noodles" Wasserman, the school janitor, was welcomed into the band, allegedly because he was old enough to purchase alcohol for Holland and Kriesel, both of whom were under the legal drinking age.[10] The band used Thompson's friend, Jim Benton, as their drummer. Thompson was eventually forced out of the band, while Benton left. This led to Holland taking over on vocals, and James Lilja joining as the drummer. The band changed their name to The Offspring in 1986.[12]
In 1986, the band released their first single; the 7" "I'll Be Waiting/Blackball". They released the single on their self-made Black Label record company, named after the brand of beer. An earlier version of "I'll Be Waiting", which was then known as "Fire and Ice", appeared on the long-out of print Subject to Blackout compilation tape, which was also released in 1986[13] (this version is also available for free to download from the European Offspring website[14]). Also in 1986, The Offspring recorded a demo tape, which received a positive review in Maximum Rocknroll magazine.
So even if outfits like these decide to cash in for the big bucks, they've often only gotten to that point by doing it by themselves for a number of years, making their own decisions and forging their basic identity on their own, which usually also means writing your own songs. K-pop acts? Pfft. Owned and shaped by the entertainment agency from day 1. Mindless droids who do what they're told. There are these types of fluff acts in other countries as well, only in Korea they aren't balanced out by the diversity and self-made artists you find elsewhere.
You say you're from the Northwest and are familiar with the indie scene there, but through it all you obviously haven't learned much if you're still thinking K-pop has much to offer musically/artistically. If you are a gyopo, then I understand your attachment, but even then you aren't doing your homeland any favors by supporting a slave-contract system which exploits teens to the nth degree. If you're just a weigook weeaboo-type wanna be grasping for straws, well, I feel for you, but I can't feel your pain. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Good for the Black Eyed Peas.
They don't sing in Korean. So Korean people are going to listen to Korean music.
Why are so uptight over what music people should and should not listen to?
And FYI Korean music isn't about great art. Remember, singing and music is a social, not an individual activity here- Noraebang and such. Consequently, songs must have broad appeal and be relatively easy to sing.
Lastly, for many Korean children and adults, classical music is just as big.
For all the crap we give Koreans about "bad taste in music" I find many of the people here far more knowledgeable about classical music and will listen to it far more frequently than back home. |
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