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PastorYoon
Joined: 25 Jun 2010
Location: Sea of Japan
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 Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:37 am Post subject: |
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My favorite thing to say in Korea:
"와! 아시아 사람!" (followed with a big, shocked-looking face) 
For some reason, I've noticed that they really hate it.  Why is that? Maybe because it's rude?!
I can (and now do) play this game, too. Koreans do consider themselves to be Asian, don't they?  |
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
You want me to go so badly?
I'm still here. Unless you've got information I don't.
We don't hang out, and I know you're no friend of mine, so unless you're stalking me, I'm guessing that you're just sniping at me (like usual). |
Don't care if you stay or go.
I didn't say you had left. I said you'd made a choice. Am I wrong?
There you go with that 'your no friend of mine' line again. Whatever. We met twice. I know your on line persona much better than I know you.
Stalking? Sniping? Please. It's an Internet discussion forum. Perspective.
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| T-J wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
You want me to go so badly?
I'm still here. Unless you've got information I don't.
We don't hang out, and I know you're no friend of mine, so unless you're stalking me, I'm guessing that you're just sniping at me (like usual). |
Don't care if you stay or go.
I didn't say you had left. I said you'd made a choice. Am I wrong?
There you go with that 'your no friend of mine' line again. Whatever. We met twice. I know your on line persona much better than I know you.
Stalking? Sniping? Please. It's an Internet discussion forum. Perspective.
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If you don't care, why bring it up? What business is it of yours?
I've voiced my opinion on the matter here. If you have issue with my opinion... or a different perspective, by all means, say so. But your attempt at a personal snipe seems unneeded. |
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myenglishisno
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Geumchon
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| I have a problem when people who know me and know my name refer to me as "foreigner" when speaking to other Koreans around me. If they don't know me, I can ignore it. If I've known them for a year or two then it can be a pain. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Malislamusrex wrote: |
not at all, but the fact that it does, doesn't bother me. It's just the way it is.
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Honestly though, how many times in an average day does a term like this need to be used? |
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Ok, that's cool by you. But what about for those that are bothered by it and object to 'the way it is'? |
Well then they have four choices:
1. They can complain about it via letters to the media or via other medium (if they have a Korean partner/ wife/ friend willing to translate...unless they can do that themselves.)
2. They can grow a thicker skin and realize that there are more important battles to fight.
3. They can leave.
4. They can complain about it on Daves or to friends or somewhere else.
Personally I think 2 is the best choice of the whole lot...unless there's a choice I'm missing here?
Seriously nothing is going to change until the society as a whole changes...and that is not going to come about because some foreigners object to being called "foreigners." Now I am NOT trying to be snarky or insulting here...just stating the cold hard facts.
If you think I've overlooked something or you have a different take on the situation..I'd like to hear it. |
And what changes society? People saying nothing and growing a thicker skin?
. |
That wasn't one of my choices. You seem to have misread one of them so I'll quote it again and bold the relevant phrase.
"'They can grow a thicker skin and realize that there are more important battles to fight" The implication obviously being that once these more important battles are fought and won...these minor battles are likely to be resolved along the way as well.
THAT changes society. I never said anything about people saying nothing...I suggested they pick their battles. And if you want change well I suspect there are more important issues that need to be addressed first if you want people to stop saying "foreigner". |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| myenglishisno wrote: |
| I have a problem when people who know me and know my name refer to me as "foreigner" when speaking to other Koreans around me. If they don't know me, I can ignore it. If I've known them for a year or two then it can be a pain. |
Maybe you need to start hanging around other Koreans. I can't remember the last time I was referred as a "foreigner" by either Korean friends or co-workers. Either 'Urban' or 'Mr. Myth' respectively. Then again I believe it's all how you carry and comport yourself. |
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Reise-ohne-Ende
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Then again I believe it's all how you carry and comport yourself. |
How shall we carry ourselves then? Is it preferable to insult the character of random people on the internet? Does that make you an upstanding citizen, then? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Reise-ohne-Ende wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Then again I believe it's all how you carry and comport yourself. |
How shall we carry ourselves then? Is it preferable to insult the character of random people on the internet? Does that make you an upstanding citizen, then? |
I don't believe I insulted anyone's character here. I simply made a observation that has held true in over 10 years of living here.
Since you asked...carry and comport yourself as a professional. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Malislamusrex wrote: |
not at all, but the fact that it does, doesn't bother me. It's just the way it is.
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Honestly though, how many times in an average day does a term like this need to be used? |
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Ok, that's cool by you. But what about for those that are bothered by it and object to 'the way it is'? |
Well then they have four choices:
1. They can complain about it via letters to the media or via other medium (if they have a Korean partner/ wife/ friend willing to translate...unless they can do that themselves.)
2. They can grow a thicker skin and realize that there are more important battles to fight.
3. They can leave.
4. They can complain about it on Daves or to friends or somewhere else.
Personally I think 2 is the best choice of the whole lot...unless there's a choice I'm missing here?
Seriously nothing is going to change until the society as a whole changes...and that is not going to come about because some foreigners object to being called "foreigners." Now I am NOT trying to be snarky or insulting here...just stating the cold hard facts.
If you think I've overlooked something or you have a different take on the situation..I'd like to hear it. |
And what changes society? People saying nothing and growing a thicker skin?
. |
That wasn't one of my choices. You seem to have misread one of them so I'll quote it again and bold the relevant phrase.
"'They can grow a thicker skin and realize that there are more important battles to fight" The implication obviously being that once these more important battles are fought and won...these minor battles are likely to be resolved along the way as well.
THAT changes society. I never said anything about people saying nothing...I suggested they pick their battles. And if you want change well I suspect there are more important issues that need to be addressed first if you want people to stop saying "foreigner". |
Sorry, TUM, but I find this an 'important battle' for me and mine. We each have things we 'struggle' with here, and my daughter being called out as an outsider is one of them for me. I understand that for many on here, it may not be for them... and I'm not asking them to march with me or anything. I'm just trying to say that for me, this is (relatively) important.
I don't go around punching ppl when they say it or anything, but I often correct them. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Malislamusrex wrote: |
not at all, but the fact that it does, doesn't bother me. It's just the way it is.
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Honestly though, how many times in an average day does a term like this need to be used? |
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Ok, that's cool by you. But what about for those that are bothered by it and object to 'the way it is'? |
Well then they have four choices:
1. They can complain about it via letters to the media or via other medium (if they have a Korean partner/ wife/ friend willing to translate...unless they can do that themselves.)
2. They can grow a thicker skin and realize that there are more important battles to fight.
3. They can leave.
4. They can complain about it on Daves or to friends or somewhere else.
Personally I think 2 is the best choice of the whole lot...unless there's a choice I'm missing here?
Seriously nothing is going to change until the society as a whole changes...and that is not going to come about because some foreigners object to being called "foreigners." Now I am NOT trying to be snarky or insulting here...just stating the cold hard facts.
If you think I've overlooked something or you have a different take on the situation..I'd like to hear it. |
And what changes society? People saying nothing and growing a thicker skin?
. |
That wasn't one of my choices. You seem to have misread one of them so I'll quote it again and bold the relevant phrase.
"'They can grow a thicker skin and realize that there are more important battles to fight" The implication obviously being that once these more important battles are fought and won...these minor battles are likely to be resolved along the way as well.
THAT changes society. I never said anything about people saying nothing...I suggested they pick their battles. And if you want change well I suspect there are more important issues that need to be addressed first if you want people to stop saying "foreigner". |
Sorry, TUM, but I find this an 'important battle' for me and mine. We each have things we 'struggle' with here, and my daughter being called out as an outsider is one of them for me. I understand that for many on here, it may not be for them... and I'm not asking them to march with me or anything. I'm just trying to say that for me, this is (relatively) important.
I don't go around punching ppl when they say it or anything, but I often correct them. |
I understand that, and I am not belittling your opinion or what you find to be an important issue. Like you said "We each have things we 'struggle' with here".
All I was saying is that it might be more worthwhile to say try to change public sentiment (Choices #1 and #2) so we don't hear things like that as much anymore rather than try change what individuals are saying. The government has already made some steps in that area and I believe there are a couple of advocacy groups...you might consider joining or at least seeing if there's anything you can do to assist (even if just from time to time). Sure it will take a lot of time...but it will never happen without people trying.
Once again I'm not disregarding what you say...if I had kids I'd likely feel the exact same way you do about this issue. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Reise-ohne-Ende wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| What term should be used? |
Someone's name, position, or title in most circumstances, as it is with everyone else. If that's not applicable for some reason, and where the person is from is relevant to the discussion, then 미국 사람 (American) or 영국 사람 (Brit) or wherever they're from (taking care to be accurate). If you're talking about a mixed group of people, or you're not sure where the person is from, you can maybe say 다른 나라 사람 (someone from another country) or 국제 방문자 (international visitor), 국제 관광객 (international tourist), 이민자 (immigrant), etc.
There are plenty of terms to use that don't have negative connotations. 외국인 has 'outsider' built right into the term, the same way 'foreigner' does in English. I don't call people foreigners. It implies that their beliefs and habits are strange or unnatural. Most of the time, there's no need to refer to someone's nationality when you're talking about them. If there is a need, there are more diplomatic ways to do so. |
How do we know they are a tourist or American or so on?
It seems that a good chunk of these cases involve interactions with complete strangers.
I get it being rude if they know you. However from an experience standpoint, its pretty ridiculous trying to be PC sometimes.
And in the end for 99% of us, it is a true statement. We are foreigners. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| Reise-ohne-Ende wrote: |
Someone's name, position, or title in most circumstances, as it is with everyone else. If that's not applicable for some reason, and where the person is from is relevant to the discussion, then 미국 사람 (American) or 영국 사람 (Brit) or wherever they're from (taking care to be accurate). If you're talking about a mixed group of people, or you're not sure where the person is from, you can maybe say 다른 나라 사람 (someone from another country) or 국제 방문자 (international visitor), 국제 관광객 (international tourist), 이민자 (immigrant), etc.
There are plenty of terms to use that don't have negative connotations. 외국인 has 'outsider' built right into the term, the same way 'foreigner' does in English. I don't call people foreigners. It implies that their beliefs and habits are strange or unnatural. Most of the time, there's no need to refer to someone's nationality when you're talking about them. If there is a need, there are more diplomatic ways to do so. |
Those terms are all well and good when some sort of social context has been established or exists, but I seriously doubt a couple of middle-aged women sitting on the subway are going to bother trying to discern if a non-Korean person is a tourist, an immigrant, British, or Canadian.
The best phrase out of the lot is 다른 나라 사람 but that doesn't sound like something that would get natural usage in a conversation. And I really don't think Koreans are aware that the term bothers some foreign residents. It used to bother me when I first got here, but I started realizing they were talking about anything but me and I just sparked some sort of memory or idea in their heads. It's usually women and women love to gossip about dumb crap, whatever.
What I don't really like is a rumor I heard about Koreans living overseas and still using the term. It's like, you guys are the "people from another country" now, time to change over! I haven't heard this myself, though. |
I know for certain Chinese do this, so it wouldn't surprise me if Koreans do too. |
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Reise-ohne-Ende
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Reise-ohne-Ende wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| What term should be used? |
Someone's name, position, or title in most circumstances, as it is with everyone else. If that's not applicable for some reason, and where the person is from is relevant to the discussion, then 미국 사람 (American) or 영국 사람 (Brit) or wherever they're from (taking care to be accurate). If you're talking about a mixed group of people, or you're not sure where the person is from, you can maybe say 다른 나라 사람 (someone from another country) or 국제 방문자 (international visitor), 국제 관광객 (international tourist), 이민자 (immigrant), etc.
There are plenty of terms to use that don't have negative connotations. 외국인 has 'outsider' built right into the term, the same way 'foreigner' does in English. I don't call people foreigners. It implies that their beliefs and habits are strange or unnatural. Most of the time, there's no need to refer to someone's nationality when you're talking about them. If there is a need, there are more diplomatic ways to do so. |
How do we know they are a tourist or American or so on?
It seems that a good chunk of these cases involve interactions with complete strangers.
I get it being rude if they know you. However from an experience standpoint, its pretty ridiculous trying to be PC sometimes.
And in the end for 99% of us, it is a true statement. We are foreigners. |
Fair enough. When a stranger does have to refer to a Westerner, though, and they don't know their situation....I mean it just seems so irrelevant though. How would they refer to anyone else whose name and profession they didn't know? They'd say, you know, "The woman in the red shirt," or "The man holding the big box over there." Or, "The woman with brown hair." I wouldn't even necessarily object to '백인' (white person) or black person or whatever. Just...외국인 creates an unnecessary division, in my opinion.
ETA: I remember a moment that really opened my eyes. I was at Dunkin Donuts and trying to get to a particular donut, but a little boy was standing in the way. Before I could say anything, his sister grabs him and goes, "야! 기다리고 있는 여자 있다!' (Hey, there's a woman waiting!) or something around those lines. I remember being SHOCKED for quite a long time after that when I realized...she'd called me a 여자 and not a 외국인!!! It meant so much to me. I wish incidents like that were more common than the other way around.
And again, if the relevant fact of the matter is their lack of Korean citizenship (when talking about immigration, for example, or foreign diplomacy, or something), I'd really much prefer '다른 나라 사람'. It just seems more polite. Like the difference between 'the people who come from another country' and 'the people who don't come from our country'. It's a subtle linguistic difference that does have some emotional punch to it for some people.
In someone like Captain Corea's case, though, you can see why even 다른 나라 사람 isn't even always appropriate. His daughter is not 다른 나라 사람. She's 한국인. If people don't like calling her that, then they're having a problem with their own racism. She should never be subjected to being called 외국인 just because she's not Asian (I'm assuming, based on past posts). |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| Reise-ohne-Ende wrote: |
| ...she'd called me a 여자 and not a 외국인!!! It meant so much to me. I wish incidents like that were more common than the other way around. |
Me too, I get a kick out of being treated like an ordinary citizen. Like when a woman rolls down her car window & addresses me as "ajoshi" & asks for directions. Or a grandma at the bus stop asks me which bus goes to such & such place. Or kids strolling past give me a calm pleasant "hi" or "annyeong haseyo" (or no acknowledgement at all!). Incidents like these are definitely becoming more common.
I'm under no illusions that I'm perceived the same as a Korean but I've lived in the same small neighborhood for 12 years & would like to think I've had a bit of impact on local perceptions of foreigners. I am a foreigner. I'm also just a guy who lives amongst them, contributes to the community, & happens to be different.
Koreans in general are adapting quite rapidly to the increase of outsiders in their midst, considering its a quite recent phenomenon. To my ear, there is no slur implicit in the term "waegukin," just a statement of fact.
I'm happy to live in a place where words arent hyperscrutinized for hidden meaning. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| zappadelta wrote: |
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| What I don't really like is a rumor I heard about Koreans living overseas and still using the term. It's like, you guys are the "people from another country" now, time to change over! I haven't heard this myself, though. |
This is true, I have heard this while travelling in China and the Phillipines, which led me to the conclusion that the word 외국인 means more 'non-Korean' than 'foreigner'. |
Thus why kyopos aren't waegukin, no matter how little their connection to Korea. |
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