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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:14 am Post subject: |
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외국인 is not the preferred nomenclature. 다른 나라 사람 please.
I dunno, I find it hard to take Koreans to task for using a term that we ourselves use so frequently.
I mean we ourselves use the term 'foreigners' when describing events involving strangers in Korea. We don't call them 'people from another country' ourselves. How can we be outraged when Koreans fail to do the same?
We sometimes use NETs, but that's only when we know their occupation. |
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Kimchi4Me
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't mind being called that....let's just be honest...people everywhere single others out who are "not one of us". I think it's funny that people treat others like that and then are so surprised when it is done to them. |
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Reise-ohne-Ende
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I mean we ourselves use the term 'foreigners' when describing events involving strangers in Korea. We don't call them 'people from another country' ourselves. How can we be outraged when Koreans fail to do the same?
We sometimes use NETs, but that's only when we know their occupation. |
I would argue that the differences is because we're referring to those who are 'one of our kind', so it's not creating a divide between the person we're referring to and ourselves, which is one of my primary problems with 외국인.
That said, I take great care to say 'foreigner' as little as possible, generally only when I'm talking to a Korean person that wouldn't understand other terms. I made the mistake of saying 'white people' a lot in the beginning, which is of course inaccurate. Generally I try to say 'Westerner', 'expat', 'native English speaker', or even 'non-Korean'. I still find 'non-Korean' a bit problematic, but I think it's better than 'foreigner'. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Reise-ohne-Ende wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Reise-ohne-Ende wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| What term should be used? |
Someone's name, position, or title in most circumstances, as it is with everyone else. If that's not applicable for some reason, and where the person is from is relevant to the discussion, then 미국 사람 (American) or 영국 사람 (Brit) or wherever they're from (taking care to be accurate). If you're talking about a mixed group of people, or you're not sure where the person is from, you can maybe say 다른 나라 사람 (someone from another country) or 국제 방문자 (international visitor), 국제 관광객 (international tourist), 이민자 (immigrant), etc.
There are plenty of terms to use that don't have negative connotations. 외국인 has 'outsider' built right into the term, the same way 'foreigner' does in English. I don't call people foreigners. It implies that their beliefs and habits are strange or unnatural. Most of the time, there's no need to refer to someone's nationality when you're talking about them. If there is a need, there are more diplomatic ways to do so. |
How do we know they are a tourist or American or so on?
It seems that a good chunk of these cases involve interactions with complete strangers.
I get it being rude if they know you. However from an experience standpoint, its pretty ridiculous trying to be PC sometimes.
And in the end for 99% of us, it is a true statement. We are foreigners. |
Fair enough. When a stranger does have to refer to a Westerner, though, and they don't know their situation....I mean it just seems so irrelevant though. How would they refer to anyone else whose name and profession they didn't know? They'd say, you know, "The woman in the red shirt," or "The man holding the big box over there." Or, "The woman with brown hair." I wouldn't even necessarily object to '백인' (white person) or black person or whatever. Just...외국인 creates an unnecessary division, in my opinion.
ETA: I remember a moment that really opened my eyes. I was at Dunkin Donuts and trying to get to a particular donut, but a little boy was standing in the way. Before I could say anything, his sister grabs him and goes, "야! 기다리고 있는 여자 있다!' (Hey, there's a woman waiting!) or something around those lines. I remember being SHOCKED for quite a long time after that when I realized...she'd called me a 여자 and not a 외국인!!! It meant so much to me. I wish incidents like that were more common than the other way around.
And again, if the relevant fact of the matter is their lack of Korean citizenship (when talking about immigration, for example, or foreign diplomacy, or something), I'd really much prefer '다른 나라 사람'. It just seems more polite. Like the difference between 'the people who come from another country' and 'the people who don't come from our country'. It's a subtle linguistic difference that does have some emotional punch to it for some people.
In someone like Captain Corea's case, though, you can see why even 다른 나라 사람 isn't even always appropriate. His daughter is not 다른 나라 사람. She's 한국인. If people don't like calling her that, then they're having a problem with their own racism. She should never be subjected to being called 외국인 just because she's not Asian (I'm assuming, based on past posts). |
I've had a few similar situations where I was treated as 'just another person'... and I loved it as well. I'm fine with being called names/titles that they would use with anyone else on the street.
As for your observation about my daughter, I think you're pretty much spot on. Thanks.
| Kimchi4Me wrote: |
| I don't mind being called that....let's just be honest...people everywhere single others out who are "not one of us". I think it's funny that people treat others like that and then are so surprised when it is done to them. |
To be honest, I can't recall an instance where I called out a stranger as 'not being one of us'. Perhaps you could give more examples... but I am not/was not the type to walk down the street yelling at people who I thought were 'different'. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| schwa wrote: |
| Or a grandma at the bus stop asks me which bus goes to such & such place. |
Sorry to nitpick, but that right there is at the crux of the matter. What I mean to say is that the Korean way of referring to people, and at large the Asian way, rubs off on us. If some poor sod calls some older lady a grandma in the US, he or she will end up with some teeth kicked in, figuratively speaking of course. But here it's okay. And if you take it in reverse, I'm absolutely positive that 99% of the time, Koreans mean no ill will by referring to non-Koreans as foreigners.
I'm not trying to be confrontational, just making an observation. 
| Reise-ohne-Ende wrote: |
| That said, I take great care to say 'foreigner' as little as possible, generally only when I'm talking to a Korean person that wouldn't understand other terms. I made the mistake of saying 'white people' a lot in the beginning, which is of course inaccurate. Generally I try to say 'Westerner', 'expat', 'native English speaker', or even 'non-Korean'. I still find 'non-Korean' a bit problematic, but I think it's better than 'foreigner'. |
I do my best with that as well. I generally just default to Westerner as I'm almost always talking about someone from the West, but I've been farting around in Korea long enough to get over the personal 외국인 perception. However...
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| ...I find this an 'important battle' for me and mine. We each have things we 'struggle' with here, and my daughter being called out as an outsider is one of them for me. I understand that for many on here, it may not be for them... and I'm not asking them to march with me or anything. I'm just trying to say that for me, this is (relatively) important. |
I think most all of us resonate with this. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I remember a moment that really opened my eyes. I was at Dunkin Donuts and trying to get to a particular donut, but a little boy was standing in the way. Before I could say anything, his sister grabs him and goes, "야! 기다리고 있는 여자 있다!' (Hey, there's a woman waiting!) or something around those lines. I remember being SHOCKED for quite a long time after that when I realized...she'd called me a 여자 and not a 외국인!!! It meant so much to me. I wish incidents like that were more common than the other way around |
this is all I ever wanted as well. (except that I'm not a woman.) |
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ChrisLamp
Joined: 27 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:42 am Post subject: |
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I too am thrilled when I am treated like a human being.
Considering the fact that some of you have been here for years (have families etc) isn't it pretty shitty that the instances of being treated like just another person are so few and far between?
So many encounters that I have are tinged with the feeling that I'm perceived as inferior. Why would you choose to remain / raise your kids in such an environment? |
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littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| I had a friend (French) who came to Montreal to live and study for a few years. I don't think we ever thought of her as an outsider, and we introduced her as a Montrealer, despite her never having a Canadian passport. The ease with which she was counted as a local could never happen to me here, and that's a shame, but I can get used to it. It would be nice if they started using the word expat for those of us foreigners who live and work here, and especially for those who are here long term. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| littlelisa wrote: |
| I had a friend (French) who came to Montreal to live and study for a few years. I don't think we ever thought of her as an outsider, and we introduced her as a Montrealer, despite her never having a Canadian passport. The ease with which she was counted as a local could never happen to me here, and that's a shame, but I can get used to it. It would be nice if they started using the word expat for those of us foreigners who live and work here, and especially for those who are here long term. |
Montreal is the most welcoming place I've ever lived. Anglo or French, it's pretty easy to find acceptance there, so long as you embrace the city's vibe. |
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spicy
Joined: 25 Oct 2009
Location: Sinchon / Ewha / Hongdae
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:03 am Post subject: |
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I've definitely gotten somewhat used to it, not that I like it any more now than the first time I heard it...
My only problem with it is that they seem to use it pretty nonchalantly. I guess this sort of is representative of the Asian mindset, but even my classmates (who are all Asian girls from various nearby countries) use it only to refer to white people. They'll call black people black, Asians Asian, and only when they're talking about me will they use the word 외국인. I always laugh and say derisively that they're just as much a foreigner as I am, but they never seem to remember that little tidbit. |
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PeteJB
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't mind 외국인. But I rather dislike when people speak outloud '백인'. |
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NilesQ
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Reise-ohne-Ende wrote: |
And by the way, 50 years ago, I don't think most Americans would have batted an eye about the use of the word 'foreigner'. The fact is, 'foreigner' and '외국인' have almost identical etymologies in their respective languages.
Foreigner: foreign, from Latin foris, 'outside, outdoors' + -er (personhood suffix)
외국인: 외 meaning 'outside', 국 meaning land or country, 인 (personhood suffix)
The only reason 'foreigner' has a negative context in English now is because people (rightly) felt that it was meant to exclude them. I think 외국인 has the exact same connotation and should be treated the same way - and I have a feeling it will be, in a few decades.[/i] |
Great post. I think this explains the situation quite well. Foreigner became rude and offensive in western cultures because they are multicultural nations built on immigration. The lines of foreign and not foreign are blurred when often within the same family there are native born individuals and immigrants. A native born Canadian could be offended by the notion that their father from Korea doesn't belong in the country. Our notion of citizenship is a legal one, not an ethnic one.
Korea being so mono-cultural hasn't had enough chances for 외국인 to offend anyone. I know I'm a foreigner here. The very definition/nature of Korean citizenship makes it an indisputable fact. I don't find it offensive, mainly because I don't feel that the majority of Koreans I hear call me that are doing it with any malice in their hearts. Koreans in Toronto call me 외국인! I joke and tell them that they're the 외국인s in Canada. But I know that isn't true. We don't have the need for a word like that. We're an open society, Korea is not. Good and bad comes with both. I hear non-Korean when people say 외국인, and I truly believe that's what they're trying to say. |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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I don't understand what the problem is.
Bottom line is if you are a foreigner and you are called foreigner then it makes sense. If some people feel that they have the right to be considered Korean then they are deluded and confused. I find it amusing that someones precious feelings are hurt by being called a foreigner when they are from another country. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:32 am Post subject: |
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I heard that the term "tourist" is also being challenged as racist and demeaning and that the UN Human Rights Committee is putting pressure on the international community to change that term as it makes people feel like they are being categorized as people not from the country they are visiting.
They prefer the term WORLD CITIZEN ON TOUR.
In related news, the UN is also forming a new committee whose sole purpuse will be to generate world wide universal acceptance and love for everyone by everyone. They intent to install mind scanning equipment on people so that others can verify with a simple touch of a button that ANY random person they encounter ACCEPTS THEM, LOVES THEM and thinks only POSITIVELY of them.
Stay tuned...developing story. |
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PastorYoon
Joined: 25 Jun 2010
Location: Sea of Japan
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:01 am Post subject: |
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My favorite thing to say in Korea:
"와! 아시아 사람!" (followed with a big, shocked-looking face) 
For some reason, I've noticed that they really hate it.  Why is that? Maybe because it's rude?!
I can (and now do) play this game, too. Koreans do consider themselves to be Asian, don't they? Laughing |
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