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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Junior wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| People are responsible for their own choices and I am perfectly entitled to feel sorry or not for them. If someone jumps off a cliff I am more inclined to think he is a fool then feel sorry for him. |
I tend to sympathise with people and cultures depending on things like....
a) How they treat their women:
b) how they treat their children:
c) how they treat their animals.
d) How they treat their land and environment.
So if a people lock up their women all day and routinely kill their own sisters and daughters for minor infractions, if they train their kids to hate other ethnicities and also send them to blow themselves up, if they exhibit cruelty to animals e.g. in the way they kill them or own them: if they don't make the land productive but instead transform it to desert....
..then I'm far less likely to have any sympathy for them.
And no self-respecting, freedom-loving person should be encouraging the spread of such an intolerant stone-age culture. |
How can I make it simple enough for people like you and TUM to understand. A person is a person is a person is a person. A civilian is a civilian and a person regardless of what type of society or civilization they are born into. Most just want to make some kind of lives for them selves. |
Hitler, Stalin and Mao were people (and civilians) too. Yet they remain among the most prolific mass-murderers ever. Not that I am making an analogy here...just making a point that being a person/civilian does not give a person a pass for their actions.
And that holds true whether they are Palestinians, Israeli, or from any other nation on earth.
BTW who are these "many organizations" who claim to have seen the Israelis using WP on Palestinians? (a list would be nice).
Any impartial organizations like the IRC or just Palestinian sources/sympathizers? |
Google it, you'll find lots to look at. Anyways, not trying to be personal, but you truly do make the worst analogies. A leader is not a civilian in the sense that they are the commander in chief. I'll be point blank and blunt, do you consider the life of a palestinian civilian to be worth the same as an Israeli civilian. Note I did not say the leader, or a terrorist or a solider, just plain civilian. Junior feel free to play along too. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Junior wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| People are responsible for their own choices and I am perfectly entitled to feel sorry or not for them. If someone jumps off a cliff I am more inclined to think he is a fool then feel sorry for him. |
I tend to sympathise with people and cultures depending on things like....
a) How they treat their women:
b) how they treat their children:
c) how they treat their animals.
d) How they treat their land and environment.
So if a people lock up their women all day and routinely kill their own sisters and daughters for minor infractions, if they train their kids to hate other ethnicities and also send them to blow themselves up, if they exhibit cruelty to animals e.g. in the way they kill them or own them: if they don't make the land productive but instead transform it to desert....
..then I'm far less likely to have any sympathy for them.
And no self-respecting, freedom-loving person should be encouraging the spread of such an intolerant stone-age culture. |
How can I make it simple enough for people like you and TUM to understand. A person is a person is a person is a person. A civilian is a civilian and a person regardless of what type of society or civilization they are born into. Most just want to make some kind of lives for them selves. |
Hitler, Stalin and Mao were people (and civilians) too. Yet they remain among the most prolific mass-murderers ever. Not that I am making an analogy here...just making a point that being a person/civilian does not give a person a pass for their actions.
And that holds true whether they are Palestinians, Israeli, or from any other nation on earth.
BTW who are these "many organizations" who claim to have seen the Israelis using WP on Palestinians? (a list would be nice).
Any impartial organizations like the IRC or just Palestinian sources/sympathizers? |
Google it, you'll find lots to look at. Anyways, not trying to be personal, but you truly do make the worst analogies. A leader is not a civilian in the sense that they are the commander in chief. I'll be point blank and blunt, do you consider the life of a palestinian civilian to be worth the same as an Israeli civilian. Note I did not say the leader, or a terrorist or a solider, just plain civilian. Junior feel free to play along too. |
You were the one making the claim... the onus is on YOU to provide proof. And as a side note when I've Googled...I've never seen a SINGLE impartial organization ever making the claim that WP was used on Palestinian civilians and providing proof of such a claim.
Yes I consider the life of a Palestinian civilian to be of equal worth to an Israeli citizen. But I'm not going to feel sorry for a Palestinian civilian who throws a Molotov cocktail at an Israeli solider and gets shot dead in response. Nor for that matter an Israeli civilian who throws one at a Hamas member and then who is shot dead by said Hamas member.
If a person make a stupid mistake, the fault is theirs. Don't ask me to feel sorry for idiots. You don't provoke an armed man needlessly.
And that holds true for both sides. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Junior wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| People are responsible for their own choices and I am perfectly entitled to feel sorry or not for them. If someone jumps off a cliff I am more inclined to think he is a fool then feel sorry for him. |
I tend to sympathise with people and cultures depending on things like....
a) How they treat their women:
b) how they treat their children:
c) how they treat their animals.
d) How they treat their land and environment.
So if a people lock up their women all day and routinely kill their own sisters and daughters for minor infractions, if they train their kids to hate other ethnicities and also send them to blow themselves up, if they exhibit cruelty to animals e.g. in the way they kill them or own them: if they don't make the land productive but instead transform it to desert....
..then I'm far less likely to have any sympathy for them.
And no self-respecting, freedom-loving person should be encouraging the spread of such an intolerant stone-age culture. |
How can I make it simple enough for people like you and TUM to understand. A person is a person is a person is a person. A civilian is a civilian and a person regardless of what type of society or civilization they are born into. Most just want to make some kind of lives for them selves. |
Hitler, Stalin and Mao were people (and civilians) too. Yet they remain among the most prolific mass-murderers ever. Not that I am making an analogy here...just making a point that being a person/civilian does not give a person a pass for their actions.
And that holds true whether they are Palestinians, Israeli, or from any other nation on earth.
BTW who are these "many organizations" who claim to have seen the Israelis using WP on Palestinians? (a list would be nice).
Any impartial organizations like the IRC or just Palestinian sources/sympathizers? |
Google it, you'll find lots to look at. Anyways, not trying to be personal, but you truly do make the worst analogies. A leader is not a civilian in the sense that they are the commander in chief. I'll be point blank and blunt, do you consider the life of a palestinian civilian to be worth the same as an Israeli civilian. Note I did not say the leader, or a terrorist or a solider, just plain civilian. Junior feel free to play along too. |
You were the one making the claim... the onus is on YOU to provide proof. And as a side note when I've Googled...I've never seen a SINGLE impartial organization ever making the claim that WP was used on Palestinian civilians and providing proof of such a claim.
Yes I consider the life of a Palestinian civilian to be of equal worth to an Israeli citizen. But I'm not going to feel sorry for a Palestinian civilian who throws a Molotov cocktail at an Israeli solider and gets shot dead in response. Nor for that matter an Israeli civilian who throws one at a Hamas member and then who is shot dead by said Hamas member.
If a person make a stupid mistake, the fault is theirs. Don't ask me to feel sorry for idiots. You don't provoke an armed man needlessly.
And that holds true for both sides. |
There is no such thing as an unbiased organization in regards to this issue, the red cross included. Hell, even the Red Cross can not come into agreement, The Red Crescent Society, a part of the Red Cross international organization, had this to say about the IDF.
"According to the PRCS, Israeli Defence Force personnel on the ground and in aircraft have deliberately targeted Palestinian ambulances, and prevented or impeded them from carrying out their duties in violation of international humanitarian law.[6] In 2003, for example, the PRCS reported that seven staff members were injured and 12 ambulances were damaged in attacks by Israeli settlers and the IDF, and PRCS ambulances were denied or delayed access to areas on 584 different occasions.[7]"
Amnesty International found shells that contained White Phosporous in civilian areas during their fact finding mission. Are they biased, probably, like I said finding an unbiased source is nigh impossible. I'm glad to get some reasonablness out of you in this post. Good. If anything I feel some sympathy for the IDF as all citizens are eligiable for conscription. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| "According to the PRCS, Israeli Defence Force personnel on the ground and in aircraft have deliberately targeted Palestinian ambulances, and prevented or impeded them from carrying out their duties in violation of international humanitarian law. |
There's a reason for that.
Report: Hamas Using Ambulances to Terrorize Civilians
Hamas has stolen dozens of donated ambulances and is using them in its campaign of intimidation against Gaza civilians, Palestinian Authority officials have reported.
Hamas took 46 ambulances, confiscated the expensive medical equipment inside, and converted the vehicles to police vans.
The vans were then used during arrest campaigns targeting civilian political dissenters, the PA charged.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131771
Hamas Using Ambulances as Armed Troop Carriers
LiveLeak | January 4, 2009
Video evidence of Hamas using UN Ambulances as troop carriers when the Israelis shoot.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2158503/posts
A correspondent for Australia 's Sydney Morning Herald interviewed a Gazan ambulance driver, who described how Hamas operatives tried to force him to use his ambulance to evacuate them from a battle zone.
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_e052.htm
So the palestinians have ripped all the medical equpiment out of their ambulances and now use them as terror-vehicles to carry terrosists and to intimidate dissenters.
What would Hamas have to do to earn your condemnation?
Blow up their own kids? |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| leon wrote: |
| Amnesty International found shells that contained White Phosporous in civilian areas during their fact finding mission |
Red Cross: Israel�s White Phosphorus Shells Don�t Violate Int�l Law
By Omri Ceren Published: January 14, 2009
The international Red Cross said Tuesday that Israel has fired white phosphorus shells in its offensive in the Gaza Strip, but has no evidence to suggest the incendiary agent is being used improperly or illegally. The comments came after a human rights organization accused the Jewish state of using white phosphorus, hich ignites when it strikes the skin and burns straight through or until it is cut off from oxygen. It can cause horrific injuries� �In some of the strikes in Gaza it�s pretty clear that phosphorus was used,� Herby told The Associated Press. �But it�s not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it�s being used in any other way.�� Herby said that using phosphorus to illuminate a target or create smoke is legitimate under international law, and that there was no evidence the Jewish state was intentionally using phosphorus in a questionable way
http://www.mererhetoric.com/2009/01/14/red-cross-of-course-israels-white-phosphorus-shells-dont-violate-intl-law/ |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| "According to the PRCS, Israeli Defence Force personnel on the ground and in aircraft have deliberately targeted Palestinian ambulances, and prevented or impeded them from carrying out their duties in violation of international humanitarian law. |
There's a reason for that.
Report: Hamas Using Ambulances to Terrorize Civilians
Hamas has stolen dozens of donated ambulances and is using them in its campaign of intimidation against Gaza civilians, Palestinian Authority officials have reported.
Hamas took 46 ambulances, confiscated the expensive medical equipment inside, and converted the vehicles to police vans.
The vans were then used during arrest campaigns targeting civilian political dissenters, the PA charged.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131771
Hamas Using Ambulances as Armed Troop Carriers
LiveLeak | January 4, 2009
Video evidence of Hamas using UN Ambulances as troop carriers when the Israelis shoot.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2158503/posts
A correspondent for Australia 's Sydney Morning Herald interviewed a Gazan ambulance driver, who described how Hamas operatives tried to force him to use his ambulance to evacuate them from a battle zone.
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_e052.htm
So the palestinians have ripped all the medical equpiment out of their ambulances and now use them as terror-vehicles to carry terrosists and to intimidate dissenters.
What would Hamas have to do to earn your condemnation?
Blow up their own kids? |
answer my previous question, point blank, yes or no. Do you feel that a Palestinian civilians life is worth the same as an Israeli life? |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Junior wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| "According to the PRCS, Israeli Defence Force personnel on the ground and in aircraft have deliberately targeted Palestinian ambulances, and prevented or impeded them from carrying out their duties in violation of international humanitarian law. |
There's a reason for that.
Report: Hamas Using Ambulances to Terrorize Civilians
Hamas has stolen dozens of donated ambulances and is using them in its campaign of intimidation against Gaza civilians, Palestinian Authority officials have reported.
Hamas took 46 ambulances, confiscated the expensive medical equipment inside, and converted the vehicles to police vans.
The vans were then used during arrest campaigns targeting civilian political dissenters, the PA charged.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131771
Hamas Using Ambulances as Armed Troop Carriers
LiveLeak | January 4, 2009
Video evidence of Hamas using UN Ambulances as troop carriers when the Israelis shoot.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2158503/posts
A correspondent for Australia 's Sydney Morning Herald interviewed a Gazan ambulance driver, who described how Hamas operatives tried to force him to use his ambulance to evacuate them from a battle zone.
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_e052.htm
So the palestinians have ripped all the medical equpiment out of their ambulances and now use them as terror-vehicles to carry terrosists and to intimidate dissenters.
What would Hamas have to do to earn your condemnation?
Blow up their own kids? |
answer my previous question, point blank, yes or no. Do you feel that a Palestinian civilians life is worth the same as an Israeli life? |
Sorry thats not how a debate works.
You've just been comprehensively defeated on virtually every point. There's been about ten shots past you in the last 3 pages alone. 
Trying some desperate last-ditch appeal to emotion will not help you now. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Junior wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| "According to the PRCS, Israeli Defence Force personnel on the ground and in aircraft have deliberately targeted Palestinian ambulances, and prevented or impeded them from carrying out their duties in violation of international humanitarian law. |
There's a reason for that.
Report: Hamas Using Ambulances to Terrorize Civilians
Hamas has stolen dozens of donated ambulances and is using them in its campaign of intimidation against Gaza civilians, Palestinian Authority officials have reported.
Hamas took 46 ambulances, confiscated the expensive medical equipment inside, and converted the vehicles to police vans.
The vans were then used during arrest campaigns targeting civilian political dissenters, the PA charged.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131771
Hamas Using Ambulances as Armed Troop Carriers
LiveLeak | January 4, 2009
Video evidence of Hamas using UN Ambulances as troop carriers when the Israelis shoot.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2158503/posts
A correspondent for Australia 's Sydney Morning Herald interviewed a Gazan ambulance driver, who described how Hamas operatives tried to force him to use his ambulance to evacuate them from a battle zone.
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_e052.htm
So the palestinians have ripped all the medical equpiment out of their ambulances and now use them as terror-vehicles to carry terrosists and to intimidate dissenters.
What would Hamas have to do to earn your condemnation?
Blow up their own kids? |
answer my previous question, point blank, yes or no. Do you feel that a Palestinian civilians life is worth the same as an Israeli life? |
Sorry thats not how a debate works.
You've just been comprehensively defeated on virtually every point. There's been about ten shots past you in the last 3 pages alone.
Trying some desperate last-ditch appeal to emotion will not help you now. |
Nope, haven't been defeated, everything you say comes from highly biased sources, and are all disputed. You can't answer the question because you have to lie or admit you don't have a fair regard for human life. It's a simple question, yes or no. It'd answer a lot about your views and motivations. You've been wrong on many factual points so far, so I'm trying another tactic to break this thing down to the simplest points. No dubious worthless sources like israelnationalnews.com to back you up, really you could at least pretend to try to use unbiased info, TUM played along, now how about you? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| leon wrote: |
| Amnesty International found shells that contained White Phosporous in civilian areas during their fact finding mission |
Red Cross: Israel�s White Phosphorus Shells Don�t Violate Int�l Law
By Omri Ceren Published: January 14, 2009
The international Red Cross said Tuesday that Israel has fired white phosphorus shells in its offensive in the Gaza Strip, but has no evidence to suggest the incendiary agent is being used improperly or illegally. The comments came after a human rights organization accused the Jewish state of using white phosphorus, hich ignites when it strikes the skin and burns straight through or until it is cut off from oxygen. It can cause horrific injuries� �In some of the strikes in Gaza it�s pretty clear that phosphorus was used,� Herby told The Associated Press. �But it�s not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it�s being used in any other way.�� Herby said that using phosphorus to illuminate a target or create smoke is legitimate under international law, and that there was no evidence the Jewish state was intentionally using phosphorus in a questionable way
http://www.mererhetoric.com/2009/01/14/red-cross-of-course-israels-white-phosphorus-shells-dont-violate-intl-law/ |
You're playing he said she said. Amnesty International said they did, Red Cross said they didn't. Amnesty said the saw shells, Red Cross said they didn't. Not really conclusive, eh? So I'll see your Red Cross with Amnesty International and raise you a Human Rights Watch who also found evidence of WP use against civilians.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5519433.ece
Even Israel admitted it, before they took it back. They also disciplined two officers for its use. The Christian Science Monitor even found evidence.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2010/0201/Israel-says-white-phosphorus-use-in-Gaza-exceeded-authority
I know, you're going to say that these groups hate Israel, and hate the Jews and are racist, and that I'm racist or something like that. Sorry my sources aren't as good as Israelnationalnews.com and what ever else you use. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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That cartoon is totally fair and representative of the actual reality. US support for Israel is among one of the many hypocrisies and betrayals of America's core ideals. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Did I ever say that Hamas never used ambulances? I don't know if they did or not, it wouldn't surprise me if they did. Do I trust youtube.com videos, not especially, but nice diversionary tactic. Junior, do you think that a Jewish life and an Arabic life have the same intrinsic value? Yes or No, until then I'm just going to assume I know the answer. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Do I trust youtube.com videos, not especially, but nice diversionary tactic.. |
Why don't you trust them? Do you think the videos are faked, using sophisticated special effects?Spell it out.
These same videos appear on dozens of other sites. e.g. here:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=116_1231063776
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2158503/posts
http://videosift.com/video/Hamas-using-UN-ambulances-as-troop-carriers
And their misuse of ambulances is widely documented in other media:.
| Quote: |
PMW has documented the repeated use of foreign funding by both the PA and Hamas for terror and glorification of terror. The following is another case of well intended humanitarian assistance given to Palestinians that is appropriated for military or terror purposes:
"The [Palestinian] Health Ministry stated yesterday that Hamas militias had raided 46 ambulances, donated by Arab states during the recent aggression on the Gaza Strip, of the medical equipment that they contained and used them as military vehicles to arrest civilians, after painting [the ambulances] black.
The Ministry's director of public relations and information, Dr. Omar Nasr said that the medical equipment removed from the ambulances was expensive. He demanded that the Hamas militias declare, courageously and openly, what had become of the thousands of tons of medical equipment which had been brought into the Gaza Strip as assistance for the Palestinian people, and which had passed at its [Hamas's] orders to private warehouses and its own medical centers, and was later sold to the helpless citizen |
| Quote: |
| http://www.hudson-ny.org/578/hamas-converts-46-ambulances-to-military-vehicles-using-humanitarian-aid |
But this is hardly new for Hamas. there are other incidents:
| Quote: |
One of the most prominent incidents is the suicide bombing attack on Jaffa Street in Jerusalem on January 27, 2002, in which one Israeli civilian was killed and over 100 were injured. The suicide bombing was carried out by Wafa Idris, a resident of the Amari refugee camp near Ramallah. Idris served as a medical secretary for the Palestinian Red Crescent. Following investigation by security forces, it appears that the suicide bomber was dispatched to carry out the attack by Muhamad Hababa, a resident of the village of Beit Iksa near Ramallah, a Tanzim operative and an ambulance driver of the Palestinian Red Crescent. Also involved in the terror attack was Munzar Nur, a resident of Anabta, near Tulkarm, who worked for the Palestinian Red Crescent as well.
Incidents in which ambulances were used for terrorist activities:
On March 27, 2002 IDF forces arrested Islam Jibril, a Tanzim operative at a checkpoint near Ramallah. Jibril, born 1971, a resident of the Balata refugee camp in Nablus, worked as an ambulance driver in the Palestinian Red Crescent. Jibril was arrested while driving a Red Crescent ambulance containing an explosive belt and explosive devices. During his investigation Jiblril confessed that the bombs were handed to him in Nablus by Mahmud Titi, a senior Tanzim operative in the Samaria area who was killed by security forces. The explosive belt was hidden underneath a stretch carrying a sick Palestinian boy aside his family members.
Investigation has revealed that during March 2002 several Palestinian terrorists in Ramallah were using ambulances in order to move from one spot to another. The terrorists were wearing medical uniforms and some of them used city hospitals as a hiding place.
In October 2001 Israeli security forces arrested Nidal Nazal, resident of Qalkilya, a Hamas terrorist and the brother of Nasser Nazal - a senior Hamas terrorist in the city. Nidal worked as an ambulance driver for the Palestinian Red Crescent. In his investigation Nidal confessed to the transfer of weaponry for terrorists and using his freedom of passage granted to him due to the fact that he was an ambulance driver. Furthermore, Nidal used this privilege in order to act as a messenger of Hamas HQ in different Palestinian cities.
In a document seized during Operation Defensive Shield, it was noted that weapons were concealed in the floor of an ambulance. In an another document it is noted that the Palestinian general intelligence service used an ambulance to transfer a suspect from Husan to Bethlehem. |
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/12/The+Palestinian+use+of+ambulances+and+medical+mate.htm
| Quote: |
Hamas tried to hijack ambulances during Gaza war
PALESTINIAN civilians living in Gaza during the three-week war with Israel have spoken of the challenge of being caught between Hamas and Israeli soldiers as the radical Islamic movement that controls the Gaza strip attempted to hijack ambulances.
Mohammed Shriteh, 30, is an ambulance driver registered with and trained by the Palestinian Red Crescent Society.
His first day of work in the al-Quds neighbourhood was January 1, the sixth day of the war. "Mostly the war was not as fast or as chaotic as I expected," Mr Shriteh told the Herald. "We would co-ordinate with the Israelis before we pick up patients, because they have all our names, and our IDs, so they would not shoot at us."
Mr Shriteh said the more immediate threat was from Hamas, who would lure the ambulances into the heart of a battle to transport fighters to safety. |
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/hamas-tried-to-hijack-ambulances-during-gaza-war/2009/01/25/1232818246374.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
Do you also disbelieve the sydney morning herald?
Or are you just going to deny and hand-wave as usual. |
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