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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Juregen wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Juregen wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
Well, that is also in regard to his politics. As in his policies are bad, so I'm glad he's out of the game. When your sexual life is rife with irresponsibilty, including more than one accusation of assult, then yeah it becomes an issue. It's an embarrasment to the state. Also loyalty is important to the presidency, if a guy can't be loyal to any of his three wifes, then how can he be loyal to anything. Also his behaviour demonstrates a low regard for woman, so how can he be trusted to look out for their best interest. Lastly it's a matter of class and dignity, as in if you are a world leader you have to be a diplomat and reach out to various interests effectively, which is a lot harder to do if lots of people find you to be offensive. Your second part of the post is just dumb. Not everything is about libertarian fantasy. |
We all have our own pursuit, it seems that yours is a feeling of righteousness on how one person should behave in the bedroom.....
His bedroom manners have NOTHING to do with your life, and therefore private information. We know that prostitution is illegal, but it seems that the woman herself tried to convince Khan to give him some stress relief, and only asked money after the fact. To which she then tried to strong arm him into a settlement ..... which is nothing more then legally pursued blackmail.
His private life is not for you to discuss, discern or dismiss, that is why we call it private. It should also not be of a concern for his job. Or do you want your boss to question you about your sex life to see whether you are fit for the job?
It is obvious you are not fully aware of the consequences when we follow your line of thought. |
Really? This is a guy with a long history of sexual misconduct, including more than one accusation of rape. That hooker account is his account which is not really any more trust worthy than the woman's, given his history. Your view is simple minded at best. My job and his job are very very different. This is the guy next in line to be President of one of the most important countries in the world, higher standards do apply. This is a man who has to take care of issues that face woman, and he is a known womanizer who has been accused of misconduct with woman several times. Again loyalty and trustworthiness is an important quality when you are running to be President of a country, or running a vastly important organization that affects the lives of millions. If your own wife can't trust you then why should anyone else. Your line of thought is naive and simple at best. |
I am more curious about the sexual orientation of the teacher, than the politician running the country. What's got sex to do with running a country.... I guess you are not from Europe. |
Probably not. It seems Europeans are eager to shield their elites from scrutiny, which is a kind of due respect, I suppose. But as an American, I don't understand why Europeans would curtail the freedom of speech to enable the venial misconduct of their elites.
After all, political speech should be the most protected and cherished of speech. And only the most deliberate and malicious falsehoods should be squelched, and private citizens should be allowed to say and believe what they want.
Nobody in America knocked down the door to DSK's bedroom. A participant to the acts opened the door. And behind it were evidence of blood, semen, and circumstantial indicators of lack of consent. The question we are all asking is whether she was a willing partipant.
How can a free people restrain themselves from speaking openly about such matters and remain free?
Meanwhile many Europeans are going well beyond the presumption of innocence and casting conspiratorial shadows onto this already dim affair. There is nothing free or dignified about a populous with a penchant for conspiracy theories and bowing heedlessly to their elites. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Juregen wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Juregen wrote: |
His private life is not for you to discuss, discern or dismiss, that is why we call it private. It should also not be of a concern for his job. Or do you want your boss to question you about your sex life to see whether you are fit for the job? |
There's nothing wrong with demanding national leaders who, in addition to whatever policy positions they might hold, also possess excellence of character. |
Hahahahahah. You are so funny.
Excellence of character means you can't have intercourse with other people? |
Not at all. It does, however, mean one probably shouldn't go around engaging in behavior that regularly gets one accused of either sexual harassment, attempted rape, or actual rape.
| Juregen wrote: |
| Who is to decide what "Excellence of Character" really means. What you are selling is nothing more than an empty Ethos. |
You can try to sell your ethical nihilism to me all you like, but I'm not going to buy it. You can argue that there's room for debate and discussion about precisely what constitutes excellence of character, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
| Juregen wrote: |
| "Do as I say, but don't do what I do" and all that jazz... |
A fair portion of the importance of leaders having excellent characters is specifically so that they can avoid having to say that, Jurgen.
| Juregen wrote: |
| You have no say how a man (or woman for that fact) spends his time in the bedroom. Consenting adults and all that ..... |
The problem is when what goes on in the bedroom doesn't involve consenting adults. I don't know if you realize this, but the guy is being accused of rape. That by definition doesn't involve consenting adults.
| Juregen wrote: |
| Stop being such an righteous *beep* and start giving people the benefit of the doubt, or do you believe everything your mommy told you? |
My mother didn't teach me my current set of ethical precepts. Moreover, the very first thing I wrote about this guy on this forum was a comment giving him the benefit of the doubt. I suggest limiting attempts at personal attack to situations where you know the person well enough to attack accurately. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:32 am Post subject: |
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Nothing has been proven yet, therefore the discussion on the topic is also moot.
I am not an ethical nihilist, but I do recognize when others are trying to shove theirs up mine.
He is being accused of rape, but no proof has been given.
Semen, bruises and blood, are circumstantial. Some people like it wild, and if she, from the beginning, was out to get him, she would know exactly how to set it all up.
The truth us out there, and the judge will decide. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| Juregen wrote: |
Nothing has been proven yet, therefore the discussion on the topic is also moot.
...
He is being accused of rape, but no proof has been given. |
If you read my posts on the Strauss-Khan case specifically, you'd see that I agree. My comment was of a general nature.
| Juregen wrote: |
| I am not an ethical nihilist, but I do recognize when others are trying to shove theirs up mine. |
I don't think anyone here has demanded or even requested anything of you specifically. I for one haven't; the post I made to which you so viciously responded was an assertion that there's nothing wrong with people wanting their political leaders to be of a certain character. Nothing about that demands action from you, it merely supports the choices of others. |
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Friend Lee Ghost
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| Juregen wrote: |
His bedroom manners have NOTHING to do with your life, and therefore private information...
His private life is not for you to discuss, discern or dismiss, that is why we call it private. It should also not be of a concern for his job. Or do you want your boss to question you about your sex life to see whether you are fit for the job?
It is obvious you are not fully aware of the consequences when we follow your line of thought...
I am more curious about the sexual orientation of the teacher, than the politician running the country. What's got sex to do with running a country.... I guess you are not from Europe. |
I'd rather have a leader who knows how it feels to be thick as a brick than one who plays some silly moral charade (who more often than not turn out to be hypocrits).
Why people get all up in arms over what others do in their bedrooms when it has nothing to do with the responsibility of their position is beyond me. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/07/us-strausskahn-victims-idUSTRE76670320110707
Story on Reuters about how the DSK case may discourage women from coming forward. The head of NOW in New York says:
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| "It reinforces what we already know, that the majority of women do not report rapes because the spotlight will be on their personal history and their credibility will be questioned," |
True, I am afraid.
Here's our option: Let any woman say anything she wants about any man any time she pleases no matter how insane she is; no matter how many claims she has made in the past; no matter if she is trying to gain financially or in some other manner. Never question her credibility and never look into her personal history no matter how suspicious. This has been the politics-as-usual for the past several decades.
Yup, rape is a horrible crime. False accusation is a horrible crime, too and all reliable statistics show it happens at least as much as rape happens and almost universally goes unpunished. It's an ugly truth. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| I don't think anyone here has demanded or even requested anything of you specifically. I for one haven't; the post I made to which you so viciously responded was an assertion that there's nothing wrong with people wanting their political leaders to be of a certain character. Nothing about that demands action from you, it merely supports the choices of others. |
Right, but you missed something. You are a pig-ignorant American, and its your environment thats responsible for the injustice of this sinister takedown of a French leftist politician, and by the way if a European leader is accused of something in America, Americans are guilty until he's proven innocent. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| I don't think anyone here has demanded or even requested anything of you specifically. I for one haven't; the post I made to which you so viciously responded was an assertion that there's nothing wrong with people wanting their political leaders to be of a certain character. Nothing about that demands action from you, it merely supports the choices of others. |
Right, but you missed something. You are a pig-ignorant American, and its your environment thats responsible for the injustice of this sinister takedown of a French leftist politician, and by the way if a European leader is accused of something in America, Americans are guilty until he's proven innocent. |
That really wasn't a very kind thing to say, in my opinion. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| I don't think anyone here has demanded or even requested anything of you specifically. I for one haven't; the post I made to which you so viciously responded was an assertion that there's nothing wrong with people wanting their political leaders to be of a certain character. Nothing about that demands action from you, it merely supports the choices of others. |
Right, but you missed something. You are a pig-ignorant American, and its your environment thats responsible for the injustice of this sinister takedown of a French leftist politician, and by the way if a European leader is accused of something in America, Americans are guilty until he's proven innocent. |
That really wasn't a very kind thing to say, in my opinion. |
It wasn't directed at Fox, not really.
Look, I'm really unhappy with the discourse about this subject coming from Europe. The idea is that the American justice system is some kind of coarse, unfair thing. And many Europeans are actually measuring our system up to theirs and looking to see if its the same, rather than following the actual case. They are judging the inner workings of the US justice system from the outer appearances, and then out of their own superficial understanding, they accuse us of ignoring the presumption of innocence because of details like the perp walk.
I mean look at Juregen's post. "Its up to the judge to decide," he says. That's wrong. Its up to the jury to decide. |
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Friend Lee Ghost
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Look, I'm really unhappy with the discourse about this subject coming from Europe. The idea is that the American justice system is some kind of coarse, unfair thing. And many Europeans are actually measuring our system up to theirs and looking to see if its the same, rather than following the actual case. They are judging the inner workings of the US justice system from the outer appearances, and then out of their own superficial understanding, they accuse us of ignoring the presumption of innocence because of details like the perp walk. |
They probably still remember the case of Raoul, the 10-year-old Swiss boy, jailed and charged with incestuous sex abuse of his 5-year-old sister because a nosey neighbor saw him helping her to pee in their yard. He was jailed for two months, and his parent had to flee the US out of fear that authorities would take away their other three children.
| Quote: |
Did the United States legal system, as practiced in Jefferson County, Colorado, violate civilized standards of human rights in relation to the treatment of children?
That is the question posed by a case which was little reported in the United States, but has sparked outrage and concern in countries of Europe.
European news media acted as "watchdogs" to raise European public concern for pressure on the American government in the case of an 11 year old Swiss-American boy arrested and imprisoned on charges of sexual abuse related to incest. Particularly shocking in parts of Europe was the appearance of the boy in court handcuffed and in chains. |
http://www.worldlymind.org/swissboy.htm
Can you blame them?
Last edited by Friend Lee Ghost on Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Friend Lee Ghost wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Look, I'm really unhappy with the discourse about this subject coming from Europe. The idea is that the American justice system is some kind of coarse, unfair thing. And many Europeans are actually measuring our system up to theirs and looking to see if its the same, rather than following the actual case. They are judging the inner workings of the US justice system from the outer appearances, and then out of their own superficial understanding, they accuse us of ignoring the presumption of innocence because of details like the perp walk. |
They probably still remember the case of Raoul, the 10-year-old Swiss boy, jailed and charged with incestuous sex abuse of his 5-year-old sister because a nosey neighbor saw him helping her to pee in their yard. He was jailed for two months, and his parent had to flee the US out of fear that authorities would take away their other three children.
Can you blame them? |
Actually, your cynicism is warranted. So rather than oppose it I will enlist it in my argument.
I have great confidence that unlike perhaps Raoul, DSK will not be prejudiced, because unlike Raoul, DSK commands great wealth. And great wealth is the very best asset to employ, besides actual innocence, in the American legal system. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Kuros"][quote="Trevor"][quote="Kuros"]
| Fox wrote: |
I mean look at Juregen's post. "Its up to the judge to decide," he says. That's wrong. Its up to the jury to decide. |
Yes, I give you credit on that last one, Judge/Juror, it does pose a difference, but I meant it in the spirit.
Europeans put very little credence in a Jury, so my personal bias did show there. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Friend Lee Ghost wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Look, I'm really unhappy with the discourse about this subject coming from Europe. The idea is that the American justice system is some kind of coarse, unfair thing. And many Europeans are actually measuring our system up to theirs and looking to see if its the same, rather than following the actual case. They are judging the inner workings of the US justice system from the outer appearances, and then out of their own superficial understanding, they accuse us of ignoring the presumption of innocence because of details like the perp walk. |
They probably still remember the case of Raoul, the 10-year-old Swiss boy, jailed and charged with incestuous sex abuse of his 5-year-old sister because a nosey neighbor saw him helping her to pee in their yard. He was jailed for two months, and his parent had to flee the US out of fear that authorities would take away their other three children.
Can you blame them? |
Actually, your cynicism is warranted. So rather than oppose it I will enlist it in my argument.
I have great confidence that unlike perhaps Raoul, DSK will not be prejudiced, because unlike Raoul, DSK commands great wealth. And great wealth is the very best asset to employ, besides actual innocence, in the American legal system. |
Perhaps great wealth is the best asset to employ, even more than actual innocence, in the American legal system. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Juregen wrote: |
Yes, I give you credit on that last one, Judge/Juror, it does pose a difference, but I meant it in the spirit.
Europeans put very little credence in a Jury, so my personal bias did show there. |
It makes a great difference, because American law has transformed itself to preserve the traditional common law jury trial. We even have a completely different and separate body of law that governs what a jury may or may not see/hear.
The perp walk that DSK took? Completely inadmissible. |
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