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wintermute
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
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 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Good God. The debate wasn't about whether or not Fort Knox should be audited. The debate was whether removal of gold at Fort Knox was actually directly associated with Dominique Strauss-Khan's accusal. |
What you were talking about is irrelevant since I wasn't responding to you. Fox was responding to the article. Auditing Fort Knox was an issue raised in the article.
| Kuros wrote: |
| No such extended chain of tenuous assumptions is justified without some evidence. |
We are in agreement. Why you would ask me for such evidence is totally beyond me. What is the rational position to take, when confronted with a murky situation in which we don't have access to all the facts?
| Kuros wrote: |
| Fox was justifed to mock bacasper's ridiculous Russian-inspired assertion. |
You think he was mocking. He thinks he was making a clear and legitimate argument. You and I are in agreement on that one. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| wintermute wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
Good God. The debate wasn't about whether or not Fort Knox should be audited. The debate was whether removal of gold at Fort Knox was actually directly associated with Dominique Strauss-Khan's accusal. |
What you were talking about is irrelevant since I wasn't responding to you. Fox was responding to the article. Auditing Fort Knox was an issue raised in the article. |
Both the article and my response mentioned the Strauss-Khan case. It's only your absolutely retarded "summation" of what I said did not, which is why I've repeatedly suggested you go back and try your hand at reading one more time -- something you still very obviously haven't done. |
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wintermute
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| wintermute wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
Good God. The debate wasn't about whether or not Fort Knox should be audited. The debate was whether removal of gold at Fort Knox was actually directly associated with Dominique Strauss-Khan's accusal. |
What you were talking about is irrelevant since I wasn't responding to you. Fox was responding to the article. Auditing Fort Knox was an issue raised in the article. |
Both the article and my response mentioned the Strauss-Khan case. It's only your absolutely retarded "summation" of what I said did not, which is why I've repeatedly suggested you go back and try your hand at reading one more time -- something you still very obviously haven't done. |
| Fox wrote: |
So you're seriously suggesting that a mysterious cabal of bankocrats competent and capable enough to arrange for the removal of all gold from Fort Knox and its replacement with fraudulent tungsten is also so completely inept and incompetent that after they were found out by this Strauss-Kahn fellow, their response was to frame him so incompetently that "Prosecutors are poised to drop all sex assault charges against former IMF chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn in the coming weeks due to doubts about his accuser's credibility?"
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| Fox wrote: |
I think it's pretty clear what I'm saying: that this constant barrage of conspiracy theories predicated on a paradoxical scenario of ultra-competent masterminds capable of smuggling huge amounts of gold out of Fort Knox and regularly arranging for fraudulent audits every year while simultaneously being incompetents so inept that they not only get found out by chumps on the internet but can't even successfully frame a man who they evidently fear could reveal their secret is stupid, and that people who believe it are being irrational. |
This is what you said.Do you actually believe this argument is valid, and achieves anything? Because if not, we can stop right here.
If you do insist that you are making some kind of point, this is why it is not successful.
In short, you outlined a caricature of the oppositions' position, then stated that anyone who "believes" that caricature of a position is irrational.
By itself that's fine, but pointless. Is there, actually, a single person that you know of who believes that exact position? If there is, I'll concede you have a point.
If there isn't, you've narrowed down the target of the argument to effectively zero, making it worthless, and entirely imaginary, since your caricature of the argument, and the people it applies to are product of your imagination. You imagined a stupid argument, and you imagined some people stupid enough to be rebuked by it. Good job!
Since you were intending to rebut Friend Lee Ghost then you must have believed that your self serving caricature of his position was more or less accurate. It's not, so the argument fails.
My summary of your argument:
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| I can't imagine a scenario where this is possible |
comes from your statement directly, and
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| so therefore it is impossible, |
is inferred from your attempt to defend it as a valid argument.
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| and anyone who believes it is irrational |
comes from your statement directly, and
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| that means YOU Friend Lee Ghost |
is inferred from your attempt to defend it as a valid argument.
Do you want me to stop being wilfully dense and imagine that you made a good and clear argument? I could, but that would be meeting you more than half way. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| wintermute wrote: |
| What is the rational position to take, when confronted with a murky situation in which we don't have access to all the facts? |
Something tells me you wouldn't recognize genuine skepticism if it slapped you in the face. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| wintermute wrote: |
| Do you actually believe this argument is valid, and achieves anything? |
You are the one that keeps using the term argument, and I don't care what you think does or does not achieve anything. Again, I don't see how I can be more clear about this. All your talk about what is or isn't an argument, or what is or isn't purposeful, or what will or will not achieve anything? It's all babble.
| wintermute wrote: |
| By itself that's fine, but pointless. |
Do you know what's pointless? Anything you have to say to me until you can tell me how this:
And this:
| Wintermute's Stupid, Wrong Characterization Of What Fox Said wrote: |
| Well I can't imagine why anyone would even want to steal gold, let alone actually do it, therefore it is impossible, therefore anyone who even considers the possibility is irrational. |
are different. Until you can stand up and tell me, in clear, precise fashion why you were wrong here, all you're going to get from me is scorn. This isn't Conspiracy Theory Sesame Street. I'm not here to teach you how to coax meaning from the English language. |
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Friend Lee Ghost
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Good God. The debate wasn't about whether or not Fort Knox should be audited. The debate was whether removal of gold at Fort Knox was actually directly associated with Dominique Strauss-Khan's accusal. |
While it was incidental, it was my point. The rape or not-rape is small potatoes when compared to the Fort Knox issue. It is what is more important to talk about, perhaps on another thread.
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| No such extended chain of tenuous assumptions is justified without some evidence. Fox was justifed to mock bacasper's ridiculous Russian-inspired assertion. |
What is ridiculous is your and other Americans preoccupation with the sex lives of politicians and celebrities. Do you think the Russians would make a totally baseless assertion? Or to use Fox' type of reasoning, do you think that people so intelligent to get to rule one of the largest and most importatn countries on earth would so ineptly make a baseless assertion against a prominent figure currently in the headlines?  |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:37 am Post subject: |
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False rape charges to cover up own wrong, or for political reasons?
Maid violates professional ethics and walks into a prominent naked guest�s room
Dominique Strauss-Kahn, IMF Managing Director and French presidential candidate accused of rape. As the feminist dominated press is scared to even think that the rape accusations are false, Human-Stupidity has to speak up. The story is very strange, and dominated by clear mistakes committed by accuser. A five star hotel maid trespasses into a naked client�s room? Unforgivable. 5 Star hotel ecurity lets a rapist check out? The maid is not trained to instantly report crimes to security staff?
That is a bad start. She made a mistake. This should not happen in a top class hotel. Were the sex roles inverted, were a male employee walk in on a prominent naked female guest, like Mrs. Hillary Clinton, the male employee would be fired and arrested for sexual harassment. Usually, hotels have a policy to avoid such embarrassment: cleaners should knock on the door, ring the bell, yell "room service" when walking into rooms.
What a coincidence: she makes a serious professional mistake. A hitherto well behaved, civilized man, suddenly goes crazy? Just because he was naked he wanted to take advantage of her and rape her?
A man on the covers of all magazines, admired by millions of women, who could get women at a snap of his fingers. A man from a country with legalized prostitution who could afford 2 luxury prostitutes per day, in case he is a sex addict. And this guy, exactly the moment the woman walks in, illegally, incorrectly, grabs her and rapes her?
... |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| Ineverlie&I'malwaysri wrote: |
False rape charges to cover up own wrong, or for political reasons?
Maid violates professional ethics and walks into a prominent naked guest�s room
Dominique Strauss-Kahn, IMF Managing Director and French presidential candidate accused of rape. As the feminist dominated press is scared to even think that the rape accusations are false, Human-Stupidity has to speak up. The story is very strange, and dominated by clear mistakes committed by accuser. A five star hotel maid trespasses into a naked client�s room? Unforgivable. 5 Star hotel ecurity lets a rapist check out? The maid is not trained to instantly report crimes to security staff?
That is a bad start. She made a mistake. This should not happen in a top class hotel. Were the sex roles inverted, were a male employee walk in on a prominent naked female guest, like Mrs. Hillary Clinton, the male employee would be fired and arrested for sexual harassment. Usually, hotels have a policy to avoid such embarrassment: cleaners should knock on the door, ring the bell, yell "room service" when walking into rooms.
What a coincidence: she makes a serious professional mistake. A hitherto well behaved, civilized man, suddenly goes crazy? Just because he was naked he wanted to take advantage of her and rape her?
A man on the covers of all magazines, admired by millions of women, who could get women at a snap of his fingers. A man from a country with legalized prostitution who could afford 2 luxury prostitutes per day, in case he is a sex addict. And this guy, exactly the moment the woman walks in, illegally, incorrectly, grabs her and rapes her?
... |
This is all well and good, except for the semen and bruised vagina. Regardless of what happened, this post is rendered worthless due to that glaring omission. |
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Kepler
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:04 am Post subject: |
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The charges have been dropped. Strauss-Kahn is a free man:
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NEW YORK � A pair of judges put an end Tuesday to the sensational sexual assault case against Dominique Strauss-Kahn, setting him free after prosecutors argued the hotel housekeeper accusing the former International Monetary Fund head of sexual assault couldn�t be trusted.
The decision to drop the charges in a case that has attracted global attention as a cauldron of sex, violence, power and politics had been widely expected. Prosecutors filed court papers Monday saying that they could not trust the word of the hotel housekeeper accusing the man who was once a potential French presidential candidate of attempted rape.
"Our inability to believe the complainant beyond a reasonable doubt means, in good faith, that we could not ask a jury to do that," assistant district attorney Joan Illuzzi-Orbon said in formally recommending the case be dismissed. |
http://thechronicleherald.ca/World/1259806.html |
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Stout
Joined: 28 May 2011
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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Hooray for the establishment.
Now he just needs his boys to get the charges dropped on his next pending sexual assault case in France and he'll be scot free. Yipee! 'Atta boy! |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| Ineverlie&I'malwaysri wrote: |
| The maid is not trained to instantly report crimes to security staff? |
Because maids get regular practice at getting raped? Few rape victims report immediately after the assault because of the shock and mental trauma. Many don't come forward for years.
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| A hitherto well behaved, civilized man, suddenly goes crazy? Just because he was naked he wanted to take advantage of her and rape her? |
Hahaha! You haven't been reading the French news, have you?
DSK is a well known predator, and has a reputation going back years. He is having to answer charges of an attempted rape back in France, and some female politicians who have long considered him a serious menace for years made a habit of always arranging to have someone in the room with them when they had to have face to face meetings with him. None of this is a surprise to many in the circles of elite French society that he socialised in.
I have followed the French press on this, and several of my female French friends are delighted that he has had his comeupance (of a sort) and there is so much soul searching in France right now, as they are having to face the fact that they are a sexist society where women have not been able to report this sort of thing. Many French women are looking to America and consider it a nation more evolved in its treatment of women. Many French women were furious at the way male French journalists and politicians tried to excuse DSK.
| Quote: |
| A man on the covers of all magazines, admired by millions of women, who could get women at a snap of his fingers. A man from a country with legalized prostitution who could afford 2 luxury prostitutes per day, in case he is a sex addict. And this guy, exactly the moment the woman walks in, illegally, incorrectly, grabs her and rapes her? |
You don't understand the psychology of a rapist. |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:01 am Post subject: |
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One in two rape accusations are false! Strauss-Kahn, presumed guilty, jailed, slandered without due process, escaped. Others are not so lucky!
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| Let us remember the thousands of men that are less lucky then Dominique Strauss-Kahn. For every Strauss-Kahn, there are dozens of men that don�t escape unjust persecution |
Way over 50% of rape accusations are false. 7.4% blatantly enough to prosecute (Bavarian Police research report)
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| 1894 complaints of rape and sexual assault were filed to police of the state of Bavaria in 2000. The consensus estimate of all responsible officials is that way over 50% of accusations are false. Even when accusations are very dubious, police still file rape/sexual assault proceedings with prosecutors. Only in 7.4% of the complaints (1 in 13, N= 140) they propose legal action against the accuser for evidently false accusations, when there is clear proof or confession. The results of this meticulous 320 page research about rape and sexual assault in Bavaria replicate a less rigorous study in Schleswig Holstein state in 1994/1995, where 7.6% of complaints led to filing of false police report. |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| You don't understand the psychology of a rapist. |
Oh, really? I don't think you want to put your psych credentials up against mine, but do tell us just what is the "psychology of a rapist." |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't bothered to read your sources, because I'm certain that the statistic of 1 out of 2 rape accusations being false is absolutely preposterous. I haven't got time to deal with something so silly.
The truth is that rape is the most under-reported of crimes, and the majority of rape victims do not go to the police. They often suffer life-long trauma in silence.
I'm taking your last comment to mean that you have a degree in psychology? Goodness. Then I have to seriously wonder at the quality of education at the institute you obtained your qualification from.
I'll bow out now and leave you to it. |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| I haven't bothered to read your sources, because I'm certain that the statistic of 1 out of 2 rape accusations being false is absolutely preposterous. I haven't got time to deal with something so silly. |
By no means should you allow facts to interfere with what you want to believe.
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| The truth is that rape is the most under-reported of crimes, and the majority of rape victims do not go to the police. They often suffer life-long trauma in silence. |
Except for false rape reports, which are even more highly under-reported. The falsely accused often suffer lifelong consequences.
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| I'm taking your last comment to mean that you have a degree in psychology? Goodness. Then I have to seriously wonder at the quality of education at the institute you obtained your qualification from. |
Go ahead, attack me personally if that is what you need to make yourself feel good. I can take it. Glad to be of service. Unfortunately for you and the falsely accused, my points and facts still stand.
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| I'll bow out now and leave you to it. |
Can't say I blame you. |
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ghostrider
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:41 am Post subject: |
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Was this scandal part of a conspiracy to ruin Dominique Strauss-Kahn's chances to become president of France? If so it worked. Interesting facts about this case:
1. DSK was the leading contender to unseat Nicolas Sarkozy as president of France at the time. He was beating Sarkozy in the polls.
2. DSK had received a warning that his IMF BlackBerry might have been hacked and that there would be an effort to embarrass him with a scandal. The morning of the alleged attack he was informed that Sarkozy's political party had been able to read a private e-mail he sent from the phone.
3. A male employee entered DSK's suite between 12:05 pm and 12:06 pm according to electronic key records. No one knows how long he stayed.
4. The maid entered his suite between 12:06 pm and 12:07 pm although DSK was still in his room (usually cleaning personnel wait until the guest is gone).
5. The maid claimed that DSK dragged her forty feet to the bathroom door and sexually assaulted her there. DSK claimed he encountered the maid as he was emerging naked from the bathroom after showering.
6. DSK used his IMF BlackBerry to call his daughter at 12:13 pm.
7. DSK left the hotel at 12:28 pm according to security cameras, but forgot to take along his IMF BlackBerry.
8. Cell phone records indicate that the cell phone's GPS circuitry was disabled at 12:51 pm- the same time the hotel's chief engineer entered DSK's suite. The phone was never found.
9. The maid denied entering room 2820, but electronic key records indicate she entered at 12:26 pm. No one knows why she entered this room minutes after the alleged attack and the hotel would not disclose who was staying in the room at the time.
10. 911 was called at 1:31 pm and the maid arrived at the hospital at 3:57 pm (nearly four hours after the alleged attack). No one knows the reason for the delay.
http://media.nybooks.com/strauss.html |
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