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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
I agree with Cedar.
Red Flag -
Living in a foreign country and making no effort to learn the local language.
Its even worse when the same people associate learning the local language with ex-pat snobbery. |
In Saudi, there's little point, because you rarely meet any Saudis (except your students). Absurdly, it would make more sense to learn Urdu/Hindi, at least from a utility perspective.
That said, I learned to read Arabic and say some survival Arabic - and I certainly agree, in general, that making no effort at all to communicate in the host language (and just using English all the time) is discourteous. I'm a little less inclined to think this way now, having lived in Saudi, but if one were to live in, say, Korea, China, Spain, Brazil, failure to make any effort whatsoever to learn the language would be a significant red flag. |
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cert43
Joined: 17 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Hey man,
You on Internations? Thanks for the e-mail. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| eamo wrote: |
No, I was talking about the ex-pat snob's idea that you have to learn the language fluently. I think making some effort and getting a lot of the basics down shows enough respect to your host nation.
Becoming fluent in your host nation's language is a positive thing though. I'm sure it opens a lot of doors and makes life easier in general.....but it's not necessary. Although the ex-pat snobs seem to think it is. You can have a great life in Korea with just intermediate Korean or even less. |
Is this really a problem in Korea, though?
I know this is a problem in other countries. But how many ex-pats come here after learning some of the language in their home countries, or even to improve their Korean language skills, or even primarily to experience a different culture (I mean genuinely)?
No, the opposite is the much bigger problem in Korea. Ex-pats with no care, respect, or regard for the home culture, and rampant Western entitlement. |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Related but separate situation:
My wife has distant relatives in the UK and from what I have been lead to believe, summering in Spain is very popular. I mention this because my wife's cousin shared that at the location in Spain that he frequents there have been people who live there---in the ex-pat community--- and can only speak English, never having learned to speak Spanish the entire time they have been there--- and we are talking decades.
For me this seems rather much like a fine opportunity lost, but others may differ. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| eamo wrote: |
No, I was talking about the ex-pat snob's idea that you have to learn the language fluently. I think making some effort and getting a lot of the basics down shows enough respect to your host nation.
Becoming fluent in your host nation's language is a positive thing though. I'm sure it opens a lot of doors and makes life easier in general.....but it's not necessary. Although the ex-pat snobs seem to think it is. You can have a great life in Korea with just intermediate Korean or even less. |
Is this really a problem in Korea, though?
I know this is a problem in other countries. But how many ex-pats come here after learning some of the language in their home countries, or even to improve their Korean language skills, or even primarily to experience a different culture (I mean genuinely)?
No, the opposite is the much bigger problem in Korea. Ex-pats with no care, respect, or regard for the home culture, and rampant Western entitlement. |
Have you ever felt that the Korean community tends to keep outsiders and foreigners at an arms distance? The sense that I get is there is very much a clear divide in the Korean populace concerning who will accept, who will tolerate and who will rebuff foreigners. And, unfortunately, they don't wear name tags identifying their leanings. I'm wondering if anyone else has run into this conflict. Thoughts?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Ruby Thursday wrote: |
| I'd put "can't throw a ball" higher on the red flag list. Not being able to catch is mock worthy. Not being able to throw is disown worthy. |
Thank you for sparing me. I can't catch to save my life. And get mocked a ton. 
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
Again, this is a very trivial thing and not a serious red flag, but one thing that really grates on me is when someone is really desperate to get you to watch or listen to something that they are really in to. Use your persuasive powers by all means, but the decision to actually consume the particular product - to actually download, watch, listen, whatever - must be of their own free volition. Don't impose it - "Hey, I've got ____ on my flash drive; do you want it?" and "I've put 50 other albums on there that I think you might like as well". Ugh.
Making suggestions is great, but please allow people to digest things in their own free time, if they wish to at all |
Actually I utterly despise it when people do this. A friend back home was constantly getting me to check out whatever. Another friend who used to live here also had a habit of really trying to push stuff on me. I don't really make any effort to keep up with the latest music/television/movies/games/blogs/whatever and do appreciate being thrown the occasional bone, but toss it underhanded (since I can't catch) and please don't throw the entire cow at me.
The other thing that gets me is the follow-up.
"Did you check it out yet? Didja? Huh? Didja? Yeah? Didja?"
"No."
"OHCOMEONMANYOUGOTTACHECKITOUTITSSOCOOLTHERESBOOBSANDBUTTSANDSTUFFANDCHRISTOPHERWALKENISSOBADASSINIT!"
[/rant]
My red flags:
- People who get unnecessarily pumped talking about historical periods over innocuous situations, such as a pub pint or a kalbi dinner. But I can emphathize.
- Princesses. From hot to not in .27 seconds flat. Carry your own damn bag, don't wear high heels if we're walking around all afternoon, the 10 pounds of makeup on your face is not attractive.
- Arrogance. Trust me, I really, really don't care how many degrees you have, how much money you make, or how many hot chicks you bang.
- Bald people. Seriously, something must be seriously wrong with people to be punished with such a grievous affliction. Innately distrust them.
That's all I can think of right now. |
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sadguy
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| Ruby Thursday wrote: |
| I'd put "can't throw a ball" higher on the red flag list. Not being able to catch is mock worthy. Not being able to throw is disown worthy. |
Thank you for sparing me. I can't catch to save my life. And get mocked a ton.
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
Again, this is a very trivial thing and not a serious red flag, but one thing that really grates on me is when someone is really desperate to get you to watch or listen to something that they are really in to. Use your persuasive powers by all means, but the decision to actually consume the particular product - to actually download, watch, listen, whatever - must be of their own free volition. Don't impose it - "Hey, I've got ____ on my flash drive; do you want it?" and "I've put 50 other albums on there that I think you might like as well". Ugh.
Making suggestions is great, but please allow people to digest things in their own free time, if they wish to at all |
Actually I utterly despise it when people do this. A friend back home was constantly getting me to check out whatever. Another friend who used to live here also had a habit of really trying to push stuff on me. I don't really make any effort to keep up with the latest music/television/movies/games/blogs/whatever and do appreciate being thrown the occasional bone, but toss it underhanded (since I can't catch) and please don't throw the entire cow at me.
The other thing that gets me is the follow-up.
"Did you check it out yet? Didja? Huh? Didja? Yeah? Didja?"
"No."
"OHCOMEONMANYOUGOTTACHECKITOUTITSSOCOOLTHERESBOOBSANDBUTTSANDSTUFFANDCHRISTOPHERWALKENISSOBADASSINIT!"
[/rant]
My red flags:
- People who get unnecessarily pumped talking about historical periods over innocuous situations, such as a pub pint or a kalbi dinner. But I can emphathize.
- Princesses. From hot to not in .27 seconds flat. Carry your own damn bag, don't wear high heels if we're walking around all afternoon, the 10 pounds of makeup on your face is not attractive.
- Arrogance. Trust me, I really, really don't care how many degrees you have, how much money you make, or how many hot chicks you bang.
- Bald people. Seriously, something must be seriously wrong with people to be punished with such a grievous affliction. Innately distrust them.
That's all I can think of right now. |
T_T |
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Ruby Thursday
Joined: 29 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
No, the opposite is the much bigger problem in Korea. Ex-pats with no care, respect, or regard for the home culture, and rampant Western entitlement. |
How exactly is that a huge problem? You ever spend time in a Korea Town or China Town in any major western city? You may be shocked to find many of the residents don't speak a lick of English -- and have no interest in learning.
What do you call that? Rampant Eastern entitlement? |
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DorkothyParker
Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Location: Jeju
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:59 am Post subject: |
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What precisely is not learning the language a red flag for?
Like what do you glean from this knowledge? |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| Anybody with a modicum of self respect and decency who's living in a foreign country for a significant length of time (1 year+) would acquire survival language ability at the very least because it makes your life much easier, it's intellectually stimulating and helps you make friends from the country in question. Otherwise, unless you're lucky enough to meet people who speak English well or fluently, you're reliant on English all the time - which can lead to tricky and embarrassing situations - and your social interactions are likely to be limited to hanging around with other boring monolingual EFL monkeys. Just because English is the lingua franca and you can almost always get by is no excuse, because "almost always" isn't always and merely "getting by" is insufficient to anyone who isn't a braindead, slobbish loser. I'd love to speak 10 or more languages well, partly because I'm just interested in languages and foreign countries and partly to provide a little reprieve from the monotony of North Americans, Brits, Aussies, etc |
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sadguy
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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ooh, other red flags inspired from the k-pop thread:
people who like certain music like creed or nickelback |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Anybody with a modicum of self respect and decency who's living in a foreign country for a significant length of time (1 year+) would acquire survival language ability at the very least because it makes your life much easier, it's intellectually stimulating and helps you make friends from the country in question. Otherwise, unless you're lucky enough to meet people who speak English well or fluently, you're reliant on English all the time - which can lead to tricky and embarrassing situations - and your social interactions are likely to be limited to hanging around with other boring monolingual EFL monkeys. |
Out of curiosity, how good is your Korean, and how long did it take you to reach this level?
| Quote: |
I'm still waiting to meet a western foreigner that speaks Korean....
Yeah a lot of westerners here don't care, but I think for a significant minority this attitude is borne out of necessity, the language is extremely difficult.
I did meet one westerner who had been here eight years. I don't have enough Korean to have given him a proper evaluation, but I would say he was conversationally fluent as opposed to knowing sufficient vocabulary and having the pronunciation of a native speaker. Anyway, he said it took him five years off and on study to get to that point. Apparently he was quite skilled at foreign languages, because he claimed to know four others.
I'd skip Korea if you're looking to learn a language for the following reasons: 1. The listening and comprehending aspect is very different. Conjugated words can sound nothing like what you would find in a dictionary. For example, you would be taught that clothes is "oat" (not spelled this way but pronounced) but if you heard someone talking about clothes, they might very well say "o-she" The "o" sound doesn't help you at all because numerous words start with an "o" sound. (Ok, that wasn't an example of a conjugation, but it popped into my mind).
Which leads me to the second issue in learning Korean: To western ears, multitudes of different words sound almost the same, and are difficult to both remember and hear. For example, Ganjung might be a word, then you would have Gunjung, Gunjang, Gunjohng, Gunjoong, etc, and they would all mean completely different things.
This might not be so bad if there wasn't so much vocabulary in the first place. Actually English has far more, but very little of it is used on a regular basis. Korean uses a greater variety of words in everyday speech. There is a formal and informal word for morning, as well as name, age, house and a multitude of other examples. You would use a completely different word for sleep when telling an elder to sleep well as opposed to someone the same age or younger. Not only would you use a different word, but the sentence would be completely different as well. To an equal you would say "Jal jai-yo". To an older person you would say "Anyong-he jumoosay-yo" To a younger person you would say "Eruhm-e moh yay-yo?" What is your name? To an older person you would say "Suhngham-e ohtdokkay dweassayo?"
In part this comes from Korean being a territory of China for hundreds of years, so about 40 percent of the vocabulary is Chinese. Unfortunately, nearly all these words have a Korean equivalent, although some of the more complex ones do not. You would use the Korean word for "left" when talking about your left hand, but use the Chinese word for left when telling a taxi driver to turn left. There are two completely different number systems, and you must use both together when telling the time. The hour uses the Korean number, while the minute uses the Chinese number.
Korean also has multiple levels of politeness for EVERY situation. Every sentence must be clear on what level it is unlike in English where many sentences are virtually the same regardless of who we are talking to. If you wanted to say hi to a child you would say "Anyong". To an equal you would say "Anyong-haseyo" to an elder or superior you would say "Anyong hasheemnikga".
Korean actually has far more complexities than this, and the fact that it has a simple alphabet is both a blessing and a curse. (When you study it for a long time you'll know what I mean, although I guess we are all welcome to learn the original Chinese characters).
The main thing that you should know is that you will not I repeat NOT attain even casual conversational fluency in a year here, assuming you are planning to teach English and here and study at the same time. It might be possible if you enrolled in a university here to study full time, but even in doing this you would not come close to conversational fluency, although that might be possible after a second year of study, assuming you have a facility for learning languages and have a high motivation.
If you're planning on teaching, probably the best you can hope for is to be able to ask answer basic questions about the weather, your job, country of origin, do you like spicy food, how old you are, how to get from point A to point B, does the supermarket have any bananas, how much does a steak cost etc. If the start to get into more details much beyond a yes or no anwer, you'll be lost. If they tell you the steak is sold out and it usually comes in every Wednesday when the meat truck guy delivers, well I'll just say anyone who can understand that in Korean after a year of studying while working, you have my admiration.
Korea is very urban by the way, beautiful would not be my first adjective in describing the place. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| Out of curiosity, how good is your Korean, and how long did it take you to reach this level? |
Pretty good, but nowhere near fluent.
I studied a lot in my first two years and after that kind of gave up. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| If I ever meet the OP I will extend my limp wristed hand for him to kiss. |
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gem
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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Red flags:
Guys who use too much hair gel.
A potential partner who I find out has an unattractive and/or unintelligent, or a pretty, but crazy exwife or exgirlfriend.
Conspiracy theorists.
Divorced guys with kids. I'm not interested.
People who drive luxury car(s) and own no otherwise potentially gainful investment like property, stock, life insurance, etc...
A date who hesitates to pay for lunch or dinner. An interested man wouldn't think of me paying.
Hunters.
People who talk about religion or politics incessantly. You can't convert me.
Guys who prefer blondes.
People who've never owned a pet.
People who've owned three or more pets at one time. You're pushing it.
Vegetarians. It's just too freaking impractical.
People who can't swallow pills or put eye drops in their eyes.
People who shun pork but eat chicken and other meat.
People who can't eat spicy foods.
People who obsess over sports and they're not even placing bets.
Adults who have not traveled beyond US borders and have no desire to.
Guys who aren't naturally athletic and enjoy hiking and being outdoors.
Guys who've never played a competitive sport in high school or college or at least played an instrument in a band.
People who don't read at least a few books a year on average.
People who won't drink water or hardly eat any veggies.
People who don't like Thai food.
Slow drivers.
People who watch shows like Dancing with the Stars, American Idol, and the Bachelor.
Guys who don't have good relationships with their mothers. |
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