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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| soupsandwich wrote: |
| Abortion is not a liberty ... |
What? I'd say the right to not have your body leeched of nourishment by another human being certainly ranks up there as a liberty. Don't mistake me, I think abortion is usually the wrong choice for a woman to make, but to insist they bear children to term against their will is one of the greatest denials of liberty one can possibly inflict upon another human being. |
The right to privacy, namely, the right of a woman to control her own body, is most certainly a liberty. The question is, how to balance that liberty against the future child's life.
Libertarians come down on this analysis very differently. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| soupsandwich wrote: |
So, if the libertarian movements want government out the marriage business..........then I guess they are OK with incestuous marriage...
soupsandwich |
By definition if the government is out of marriage, then that means marriage would have to be performed privately. If two people related by blood choose to be together, then there should absolutely be nothing stopping them. Same goes for same-sex relationships. It is no business of the state's.
On the other hand, if certain religious groups choose not to recognize certain forms of marriage, then that is their prerogative (unless that religion is forcing people to do something against their will, then the state has no right to get involved). If a church refuses to marry gay couples, then there should be nothing stopping the gay community from establishing their own organization (or church) and marrying themselves if they want. |
Just out of curiosity, what's libertarians, or yours I suppose, stance on civil unions. Do you think that the state should provide certian benefits to couples, regardless of whatever sex or anything else, in regards to tax benefits, power of attorney, etc. etc. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Just out of curiosity, what's libertarians, or yours I suppose, stance on civil unions. Do you think that the state should provide certian benefits to couples, regardless of whatever sex or anything else, in regards to tax benefits, power of attorney, etc. etc. |
Speaking for myself, I don't think the state should provide any special benefits to anyone, period. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| soupsandwich wrote: |
So, if the libertarian movements want government out the marriage business..........then I guess they are OK with incestuous marriage...
soupsandwich |
By definition if the government is out of marriage, then that means marriage would have to be performed privately. If two people related by blood choose to be together, then there should absolutely be nothing stopping them. Same goes for same-sex relationships. It is no business of the state's.
On the other hand, if certain religious groups choose not to recognize certain forms of marriage, then that is their prerogative (unless that religion is forcing people to do something against their will, then the state has no right to get involved). If a church refuses to marry gay couples, then there should be nothing stopping the gay community from establishing their own organization (or church) and marrying themselves if they want. |
Just out of curiosity, what's libertarians, or yours I suppose, stance on civil unions. Do you think that the state should provide certian benefits to couples, regardless of whatever sex or anything else, in regards to tax benefits, power of attorney, etc. etc. |
A state must provide to gay couples all benefits it provides to heterosexual couples under the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment. Gays should be considered a suspect class under a Carolene Products analysis because it is an insular minority that suffers from historical discrimination, but Massachusetts has held discrimination against gays fails the rational basis test even though they declined to extend suspect class status to homosexuals.
As for DOMA, it violates the due process clause, because marriage is a fundamental right. |
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ghostrider
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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"This brief outline will give you most of the tools you need to hit the ground running as a freshly indoctrinated libertarian ideologue. Go forth and proselytize!
Philosophy
*In the beginning, man dwelt in a state of Nature, until the serpent
Government tempted man into Initial Coercion.
*Government is the Great Satan. All Evil comes from Government, and all
Good from the Market, according to the Ayatollah Rand.
*We must worship the Horatio Alger fantasy that the meritorious few will
just happen to have the lucky breaks that make them rich. Libertarians
happen to be the meritorious few by ideological correctness. The rest
can go hang.
*Government cannot own things because only individuals can own things.
Except for corporations, partnerships, joint ownership, marriage, and
anything else we except but government.
*Parrot these arguments, and you too will be a singular, creative,
reasoning individualist.
* Parents cannot choose a government for their children any more than
they can choose language, residence, school, or religion.
* Taxation is theft because we have a right to squat in the US and benefit
from defense, infrastructure, police, courts, etc. without obligation.
* Magic incantations can overturn society and bring about libertopia.
Sovereign citizenry! The 16th Amendment is invalid! States rights!
* Objectivist/Neo-Tech Advantage #69i : The true measure of fully
integrated honesty is whether the sucker has opened his wallet. Thus
sayeth the Profit Wallace. Zonpower Rules Nerdspace!
* The great Zen riddle of libertarianism: minimal government is
necessary and unnecessary. The answer is only to be found by
individuals."
http://world.std.com/~mhuben/onelesson.html |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| ghostrider wrote: |
"This brief outline will give you most of the tools you need to hit the ground running as a freshly indoctrinated libertarian ideologue. Go forth and proselytize!
Philosophy
*In the beginning, man dwelt in a state of Nature, until the serpent
Government tempted man into Initial Coercion.
*Government is the Great Satan. All Evil comes from Government, and all
Good from the Market, according to the Ayatollah Rand.
*We must worship the Horatio Alger fantasy that the meritorious few will
just happen to have the lucky breaks that make them rich. Libertarians
happen to be the meritorious few by ideological correctness. The rest
can go hang.
*Government cannot own things because only individuals can own things.
Except for corporations, partnerships, joint ownership, marriage, and
anything else we except but government.
*Parrot these arguments, and you too will be a singular, creative,
reasoning individualist.
* Parents cannot choose a government for their children any more than
they can choose language, residence, school, or religion.
* Taxation is theft because we have a right to squat in the US and benefit
from defense, infrastructure, police, courts, etc. without obligation.
* Magic incantations can overturn society and bring about libertopia.
Sovereign citizenry! The 16th Amendment is invalid! States rights!
* Objectivist/Neo-Tech Advantage #69i : The true measure of fully
integrated honesty is whether the sucker has opened his wallet. Thus
sayeth the Profit Wallace. Zonpower Rules Nerdspace!
* The great Zen riddle of libertarianism: minimal government is
necessary and unnecessary. The answer is only to be found by
individuals."
http://world.std.com/~mhuben/onelesson.html |
How much worthless drivel can a person post in a single thread? Let's wait for ghostrider to show us. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| soupsandwich wrote: |
| So, if the libertarian movements want government out the marriage business..........then I guess they are OK with incestuous marriage. |
Give one reason why we shouldn't permit an incestuous couple to marry. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| soupsandwich wrote: |
| So, if the libertarian movements want government out the marriage business..........then I guess they are OK with incestuous marriage. |
Give one reason why we shouldn't permit an incestuous couple to marry. |
What degree of consanguinity?
Brother and sister? Surely you can agree there's a valid public policy reason to deny the marriage there.
As for first cousins, if they can bear the societal shame, who cares? (as long as their parents weren't first cousins) |
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ghostrider
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| How much worthless drivel can a person post in a single thread? Let's wait for ghostrider to show us. |
So you finally have the honesty to admit that your own beliefs are drivel.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Next thing they'll saying Hitler was a libertarian (oh, wait I think ya-ta boy has already claimed that)... |
Well, libertarians have a history of being affiliated with neo nazi, holocaust denial, and white supremacy groups and gladly accepting donations from such groups. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/12/ron_paul_quackery_enabler.php |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| ghostrider wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| How much worthless drivel can a person post in a single thread? Let's wait for ghostrider to show us. |
So you finally have the honesty to admit that your own beliefs are drivel.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Next thing they'll saying Hitler was a libertarian (oh, wait I think ya-ta boy has already claimed that)... |
Well, libertarians have a history of being affiliated with neo nazi, holocaust denial, and white supremacy groups and gladly accepting donations from such groups. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/12/ron_paul_quackery_enabler.php |
Libertarian views (and those of Ron Paul) are literally the polar opposite of fascism... There is no other presidential candidate more utterly opposed to everything the Nazis stood for than Ron Paul. Bush/Obama, on the other hand, are very similar to Nazis in practically every way except for their rhetoric.
Beyond that, I'd love to give you a proper rebuttal, but there's nothing of substance to address (and that includes your crackpot blog, written by a bunch of dumbed-down, Prozac-addled, TV-addicted teenage nobodies)... Everything you post is absolute garbage. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| ghostrider wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| How much worthless drivel can a person post in a single thread? Let's wait for ghostrider to show us. |
So you finally have the honesty to admit that your own beliefs are drivel.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Next thing they'll saying Hitler was a libertarian (oh, wait I think ya-ta boy has already claimed that)... |
Well, libertarians have a history of being affiliated with neo nazi, holocaust denial, and white supremacy groups and gladly accepting donations from such groups. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/12/ron_paul_quackery_enabler.php |
Libertarian views (and those of Ron Paul) are literally the polar opposite of fascism... There is no other presidential candidate more utterly opposed to everything the Nazis stood for than Ron Paul. Bush/Obama, on the other hand, are very similar to Nazis in practically every way except for their rhetoric.
Beyond that, I'd love to give you a proper rebuttal, but there's nothing of substance to address (and that includes your crackpot blog, written by a bunch of dumbed-down, Prozac-addled, TV-addicted teenage nobodies)... Everything you post is absolute garbage. |
Besides the mass murder of their own civilians, and the camps, and the aggressive invading, oh and the Volkswagen. Those weren't that much of a big deal, right? Do you believe everything you post? When I read this it crossed my mind that this might all be some form of satire about the paranoia of those with extreme views, if so not bad. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Besides the mass murder of their own civilians |
I'm not sure the Nazis really "mass murdered" their own civilians, unless of course you are referring to the Jews (most of whom were killed in the holocaust came from Poland, however). Regardless, in no way do I deny that the Nazis were, on the whole, mass murderers.
But our government is certainly responsible for mass murdering people as well. There's too many atrocities to list, but among the most heinous include fire bombing and nuking cities in WWII, killing millions of Vietnamese civilians in that war (including mass chemical warfare and massacres of civilians), blowing up the twin towers in New York on 9/11 (of which the evidence that it was an inside job is overwhelming), invading Afghanistan and then Iraq, and killing hundreds of thousands there. The list goes on and on and on.
Oh, you mean like the camps the US federal government stuck Japanese-American civilians into during WWII? Or torture camps like Abu Graib and Guantanamo? Or how about the regular prison system, which has the highest incarceration rate on the planet by far (much greater even than China).
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| and the aggressive invading, |
The US federal government has waged more wars of aggression than any other country I can think of... Most recently, Obama (the Nobel Peace Laureate) has been bombing Libya for months. He would have made Hitler proud.
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| oh and the Volkswagen. |
If only the US government were capable of coming up with something as useful... Instead they own GM...
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| Do you believe everything you post? When I read this it crossed my mind that this might all be some form of satire about the paranoia of those with extreme views, if so not bad. |
The things I have posted are simply mainline history. Most of the crimes committed by the US government that I have listed are irrefutable and not even denied.
You on the other hand, don't seem to have much insight into anything... |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Besides the mass murder of their own civilians |
I'm not sure the Nazis really "mass murdered" their own civilians, unless of course you are referring to the Jews (most of whom were killed in the holocaust came from Poland, however). Regardless, in no way do I deny that the Nazis were, on the whole, mass murderers.
But our government is certainly responsible for mass murdering people as well. There's too many atrocities to list, but among the most heinous include fire bombing and nuking cities in WWII, killing millions of Vietnamese civilians in that war (including mass chemical warfare and massacres of civilians), blowing up the twin towers in New York on 9/11 (of which the evidence that it was an inside job is overwhelming), invading Afghanistan and then Iraq, and killing hundreds of thousands there. The list goes on and on and on.
Oh, you mean like the camps the US federal government stuck Japanese-American civilians into during WWII? Or torture camps like Abu Graib and Guantanamo? Or how about the regular prison system, which has the highest incarceration rate on the planet by far (much greater even than China).
| Quote: |
| and the aggressive invading, |
The US federal government has waged more wars of aggression than any other country I can think of... Most recently, Obama (the Nobel Peace Laureate) has been bombing Libya for months. He would have made Hitler proud.
| Quote: |
| oh and the Volkswagen. |
If only the US government were capable of coming up with something as useful... Instead they own GM...
| Quote: |
| Do you believe everything you post? When I read this it crossed my mind that this might all be some form of satire about the paranoia of those with extreme views, if so not bad. |
The things I have posted are simply mainline history. Most of the crimes committed by the US government that I have listed are irrefutable and not even denied.
You on the other hand, don't seem to have much insight into anything... |
Most of what you said wasn't when Bush or Obama were president, which is who you compared to the Nazis. As to bombing Libya that doesn't even come close to the aggression of the Nazis. To call the twin towers attack mainline history is stretching to an absurd degree. While Guantanamo and the prisons in Iraq are not ideal, to compare them to the camps of the holocaust is, again, a major stretch. Also, comparing things to the Nazis is kind of cliche. If that's what passes for insight, well, you can have it. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| ghostrider wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Next thing they'll saying Hitler was a libertarian (oh, wait I think ya-ta boy has already claimed that)... |
Well, libertarians have a history of being affiliated with neo nazi, holocaust denial, and white supremacy groups and gladly accepting donations from such groups. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/12/ron_paul_quackery_enabler.php |
When all else fails, cry 'racism!' right ghostrider? |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Most of what you said wasn't when Bush or Obama were president, which is who you compared to the Nazis. |
Much of it did so happen while Bush and Obama were president  . The SUPREME war crime or all war crimes (considered to be such since the Nuremburg trials) is to wage an unprovoked war of aggression against another sovereign nation ("essentially an evil thing...to initiate a war of aggression...is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime, differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.").
Both Bush and Obama are guilty of this SUPREME crime - the same crime Hitler was guilty of. Not to mention all the usual wanton massacres and bombing of civilians, torturing prisoners in camps, using chemical weapons etc. etc. It's all there.
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| As to bombing Libya that doesn't even come close to the aggression of the Nazis. |
Actually it does. It is the same in principle. Your argument is beyond stupid - it's like saying killing one person is "okay" because it's not as bad as killing 10 people. Try some logic.
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| To call the twin towers attack mainline history is stretching to an absurd degree. |
9/11 was obviously an inside job.
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| While Guantanamo and the prisons in Iraq are not ideal |
Biggest understatement of the year.
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| to compare them to the camps of the holocaust is, again, a major stretch. |
It's called 'principle'. It is not a major stretch. The phony war on drugs (which the CIA ships in and has been caught doing so countless times) has led to the largest incarceration rate in the world. Hitler's Germany didn't imprison nearly as many of its citizens as our government does currently (most of whom committed the 'crime' of possessing marijuana).
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| Also, comparing things to the Nazis is kind of cliche. If that's what passes for insight, well, you can have it. |
If the shoe fits... I could just as easily compare them to Stalin, but hey... |
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