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rchristo10
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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 Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| Wait, so predicting the future based on the past is irresponsible, but cynically stating the future is doomed with no proof other than personal bias is intelligent? In any event, I wasn't saying Seoul 88 was a success and therefore Pyeongchang 2018 would be as well. I was saying in response to allegations that rampant corruption in Korea would result in a failed games, that it didn't happen in 88 when this country was even more closed so there's little basis for that claim now. I was also saying that the Olympics have proven to be profitable in recent decades INCLUDING SEOUL 88, so there's no reason to rush to judgement. |
No one said it was irresponsible; it's just a bit ignorant in my opinion. Prior to the 1988 Olympics, the economic, political, and social circumstances between and betwixt South and North Korea were completely different from anything today. The current degree of weapons pointed at one another, the shooting back and forth, illegitimate imprisonment of citizens, threat of nuclear proliferation, and questionable political stability after a budding regime change were not issues in or prior to hosting the '88 games. I won't go into a long lecture on the subject, but it's still surprising that you'd mention it as if '88 & 2018 have anything in common (can't help but wonder if you're a Marxist on purpose or just a bit dense). The two events are completely unrelated aside from the names (by name I mean "Olympics"). One wonders why you didn't pick something more appropriate like the recent hosting of the G-20 or the World Cup as bait.
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| The world isn't black and white. The Olympics aren't good or evil. They're just a thing that can be whatever the humans responsible for it determine. And there are lots of humans with many different priorities involved. I personally believe the Olympics can be used for great good and I'm optimistic. You can be pessimistic. But neither of us can claim knowledge of the future. I'm basing my prediction on the past and present. Others can base it on whatever they like, but no one actually knows anything. |
No one is "blaming" the Olympics here and I'm not proposing we take up Art. 51 of the UN charter and launch a pre-emptive strike. I'm simply discussing the wherewithal and practicality of choosing South Korea to host the Olympics. Though we don't know the future, does that mean we should simply ignore what we do know, i.e. the present?
I also personally agree that from a domestic point-of-view Pyeongchang and particularly Wonju have everything to gain from hosting the event. Here I go prognosticating again...but I foresee a winter sport craze similar to the soccer one that happened after the World Cup. Surely these cities will get some benefit of the upsurge in winter sport wave prior and following the event. So it's not all pessimism, but that still doesn't make it a good or sensible decision--internationally (hmmm...it is an international event, no?).
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| Or maybe it's just a chance to complain? Because at this very moment big business is hurting the little guy, people are being displaced all around you and public funds are being misused. Blaming an event 7 years away and only announced a week ago is sort of strange, don't you think? And this isn't only true in Korea. |
Is someone pulling at strings, or simply throwing out rhetorical questions while unconsciously contradicting himself here? For a person so set against forecasting, it's a bit odd that you'd ignore the recent selection and the current international & domestic situation in South Korea. Considering your admonition on forecasting, NO, I don't see it as a bit strange at all. And apparently neither does the South Korean government, which is desperately trying to deal with the NK problem already (see link in my prior post). Sorry, but a joint-hosting and linking the event to the Mt. Gumgang (금강산) Project (of which many countries would likely reject their citizens to join), don't exactly sound like realistic options.
Perhaps the earlier poster saying that SK'd go softy on NK policies was right. Or perhaps we can just give them chicken and coke, make them addicted then counter-threat to cut off their cooking oil or cola syrup.
http://www.koreaherald.com/national/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20110714000106
http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2011/07/14/2011071401895.html
Of course who knows, SK could also go pro-NK (meaning anti-US/ Japan). But like you've already argued...7 years is a long time...
http://news.hankooki.com/lpage/politics/201107/h2011071502321421000.htm
& US's FBI spying on its own people looking for terrorists (yet to find any Korea-based articles about it...I'm sure they're in the making), talking about US's obese kids (as if that has anything to do with SKorean people), or sending military officials to China to chat about American hegemony...(미국 패권주의  ) |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| rchristo10 wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| Wait, so predicting the future based on the past is irresponsible, but cynically stating the future is doomed with no proof other than personal bias is intelligent? In any event, I wasn't saying Seoul 88 was a success and therefore Pyeongchang 2018 would be as well. I was saying in response to allegations that rampant corruption in Korea would result in a failed games, that it didn't happen in 88 when this country was even more closed so there's little basis for that claim now. I was also saying that the Olympics have proven to be profitable in recent decades INCLUDING SEOUL 88, so there's no reason to rush to judgement. |
No one said it was irresponsible; it's just a bit ignorant in my opinion. Prior to the 1988 Olympics, the economic, political, and social circumstances between and betwixt South and North Korea were completely different from anything today. The current degree of weapons pointed at one another, the shooting back and forth, illegitimate imprisonment of citizens, threat of nuclear proliferation, and questionable political stability after a budding regime change were not issues in or prior to hosting the '88 games. I won't go into a long lecture on the subject, but it's still surprising that you'd mention it as if '88 & 2018 have anything in common (can't help but wonder if you're a Marxist on purpose or just a bit dense). The two events are completely unrelated aside from the names (by name I mean "Olympics"). One wonders why you didn't pick something more appropriate like the recent hosting of the G-20 or the World Cup as bait.
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| The world isn't black and white. The Olympics aren't good or evil. They're just a thing that can be whatever the humans responsible for it determine. And there are lots of humans with many different priorities involved. I personally believe the Olympics can be used for great good and I'm optimistic. You can be pessimistic. But neither of us can claim knowledge of the future. I'm basing my prediction on the past and present. Others can base it on whatever they like, but no one actually knows anything. |
No one is "blaming" the Olympics here and I'm not proposing we take up Art. 51 of the UN charter and launch a pre-emptive strike. I'm simply discussing the wherewithal and practicality of choosing South Korea to host the Olympics. Though we don't know the future, does that mean we should simply ignore what we do know, i.e. the present?
I also personally agree that from a domestic point-of-view Pyeongchang and particularly Wonju have everything to gain from hosting the event. Here I go prognosticating again...but I foresee a winter sport craze similar to the soccer one that happened after the World Cup. Surely these cities will get some benefit of the upsurge in winter sport wave prior and following the event. So it's not all pessimism, but that still doesn't make it a good or sensible decision--internationally (hmmm...it is an international event, no?).
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| Or maybe it's just a chance to complain? Because at this very moment big business is hurting the little guy, people are being displaced all around you and public funds are being misused. Blaming an event 7 years away and only announced a week ago is sort of strange, don't you think? And this isn't only true in Korea. |
Is someone pulling at strings, or simply throwing out rhetorical questions while unconsciously contradicting himself here? For a person so set against forecasting, it's a bit odd that you'd ignore the recent selection and the current international & domestic situation in South Korea. Considering your admonition on forecasting, NO, I don't see it as a bit strange at all. And apparently neither does the South Korean government, which is desperately trying to deal with the NK problem already (see link in my prior post). Sorry, but a joint-hosting and linking the event to the Mt. Gumgang (금강산) Project (of which many countries would likely reject their citizens to join), don't exactly sound like realistic options.
Perhaps the earlier poster saying that SK'd go softy on NK policies was right. Or perhaps we can just give them chicken and coke, make them addicted then counter-threat to cut off their cooking oil or cola syrup.
http://www.koreaherald.com/national/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20110714000106
http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2011/07/14/2011071401895.html
Of course who knows, SK could also go pro-NK (meaning anti-US/ Japan). But like you've already argued...7 years is a long time...
http://news.hankooki.com/lpage/politics/201107/h2011071502321421000.htm
& US's FBI spying on its own people looking for terrorists (yet to find any Korea-based articles about it...I'm sure they're in the making), talking about US's obese kids (as if that has anything to do with SKorean people), or sending military officials to China to chat about American hegemony...(미국 패권주의 ) |
Ok, obviously you're positioning this into a North Korea vs South Korea debate, which I will stay away from. However, the thought that this wasn't a concern leading up to the 88 Olympics is ignoring history. Or maybe you're too young. There was huge controversy at the time in Seoul's selection. I would even go as far as to say it was as controversial as the selection of Beijing 08. To suggest that the threat now is greater than then is laugable. When Seoul was selected as host the Vietnam War wasn't a decade old and Nixon's visit to China was still very fresh in everyone's memories.
Yeah, South Korea did lots of bad things leading up to the 88 Olympics. Except, that had nothing to do with the Games and in fact the attention of the world actually forced the authoritarian government to soften their position.
But I'm not going to post links. Your views are your views and everyone's going to end up in prison camps or whatever. Listen, these games might end up costing the Korean tax payer lots or they might be meaningless. Or, more likely, somewhere in the middle. But you go ahead with your doomsday predictions. I'm not going to change your mind. You actually said that me basing my predictions of the future on the past under similar circumstances is 'ignorant'. I can't argue with that. Seriously, no intelligent person could argue with that. We just nod and smile and walk away. Just like Hitler was sure he could march into Russia despite what happened in the past. And the US thought you could invade Afghanistan in a week. You have a 'better plan'. Sure. Smile and nod. You have preconceived motives and political positions...smile and nod.
But it's different now. I mean, you have links to random websites, which is better than emperical and demonstratable evidence. I'm so ignorant. |
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rchristo10
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| There was huge controversy at the time in Seoul's selection. I would even go as far as to say it was as controversial as the selection of Beijing 08. To suggest that the threat now is greater than then is laugable. |
Do you actually believe this or was it simply thrown in for comic relief? Seriously? You've got to be kidding. Or so out of the loop (hmm...age?), or perhaps developments in military technology have moved to such stealth capabilities that they even defy your synaptic receptors. I'm not talking about media hype or some other odd brouhaha that you seem to be suggesting (if that's what you mean...I really have no clue if you're kidding or truly clueless).
And why do you start your posts on solid ground, then revert to meaningless garble based solely on futile attempts at coy pathos and inconsistent lines of reasoning (I'm sure you probably think it's "logic"). Hitler, Afghanistan, doomsday? What on earth are you talking about?
For the reading impaired, my inclusion of the links in my prior post was mean to be sarcasm based on Mr. Blackcat-ish "logic." Sorry for the confusion, but no one's theorizing or predicting a doomsday Armageddon. Get a grip and reread my post if things are so confusing for you.
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:14 am Post subject: |
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Sigh.
I brought up Hitler's invasion of Russia and the US' invasion of Afghanistan as examples where people didn't use the past to predict the future and suffered a similar fate as those before them. I'm not calling anyone Hitler, I'm not saying anyone's a pro-war hawk, relax. I'm sorry you think the past is irrelevent and that you have some knowledge of the future that no one else does.
And yes, military technology has advanced, but that doesn't mean the situation on the pennisula is more dangerous today than it was in the 80s. China has progressed more than anyone in that time span, should we sit in fear of them? Of course, with advancements in aggressive technology there have also been advancements in defensive capabilities.
And yes, if you were around in the 80s you would know as a fact that Seoul was an extremely controversal choice and the US and others considered boycotting. Security fears were at their highest, especially since Munich was pretty fresh in everyone's minds. The past two Summer Olympics were boycotted so this was the first full Games in more than a decade and there were concerns one side would use it for political purposes. The North even downed a passenger jet in the lead up. In the end, not only was it a pretty good success financially, but it put Seoul on the map and left an international legacy we still see today (all those English signs in the subway as one small example).
I guess I'm just confused why we shouldn't consider the 88 Olymics or 02 World Cup when predicting the impact of the 18 Games in Korea. To me, those ignoring these relative successes are just looking to complain and predict doom. Like I said, I'm cautiously optimistic although I know Korean citizens need to hold their government and industry accountable throughout the process. That's why I sort of mock anyone who throws up their hands at the whole thing, because it happens every single time a city is chosen as host. And as we've seen, sometimes they're right and sometimes they're very wrong. It's easy to be right half the time when you never actually look at the situation with an open mind and only predict failure from the get go, though. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
The current NHL bargaining agreement ends next year (2012) and participation in the 2014 Olympics is a huge issue for Russian and other European players. These agreements usually last 5-7 years so 2018 would likely be bundled in that agreement.
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Participation in the 2018 Olympics would not have to be decided then. However, if it is decided I fully anticipate that the NHL will say no. The owners (especially in the south) are overwhelmingly against it. Because they have seen little benefit in terms of popularity of the NHL in the US.
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You think Canadians and Northern Americans won't tune into another US-Canada final at 2am?
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I certainly would. As would the vast majority of hockey fans. However, the owners fail to see the long term benefit.
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| The KHL is a real threat. |
No. The KHL is a minimal threat. There is only one high quality player (Radulov) who is missing from the NHL to play in the KHL.
Many other KHL teams are suffering serious financial problems because of poor attendance.
P.S - I WANT to see the NHL at the 2018 Olympics but I highly doubt that they will be there. |
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rchristo10
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
Sigh.
I brought up Hitler's invasion of Russia and the US' invasion of Afghanistan as examples where people didn't use the past to predict the future and suffered a similar fate as those before them. I'm not calling anyone Hitler, I'm not saying anyone's a pro-war hawk, relax. I'm sorry you think the past is irrelevent and that you have some knowledge of the future that no one else does.
And yes, military technology has advanced, but that doesn't mean the situation on the pennisula is more dangerous today than it was in the 80s. China has progressed more than anyone in that time span, should we sit in fear of them? Of course, with advancements in aggressive technology there have also been advancements in defensive capabilities.
And yes, if you were around in the 80s you would know as a fact that Seoul was an extremely controversal choice and the US and others considered boycotting. Security fears were at their highest, especially since Munich was pretty fresh in everyone's minds. The past two Summer Olympics were boycotted so this was the first full Games in more than a decade and there were concerns one side would use it for political purposes. The North even downed a passenger jet in the lead up. In the end, not only was it a pretty good success financially, but it put Seoul on the map and left an international legacy we still see today (all those English signs in the subway as one small example).
I guess I'm just confused why we shouldn't consider the 88 Olymics or 02 World Cup when predicting the impact of the 18 Games in Korea. To me, those ignoring these relative successes are just looking to complain and predict doom. Like I said, I'm cautiously optimistic although I know Korean citizens need to hold their government and industry accountable throughout the process. That's why I sort of mock anyone who throws up their hands at the whole thing, because it happens every single time a city is chosen as host. And as we've seen, sometimes they're right and sometimes they're very wrong. It's easy to be right half the time when you never actually look at the situation with an open mind and only predict failure from the get go, though. |
Apparently all that English teaching has gone to your mind (I can only assume from the I-gotta-b-right attitude...forgive me if I'm mistaken). I'm talking both about the past and the future...based primarily on the present (guess you didn't pick that up). You also don't know my age, so stop pulling at strings and hoping to unfasten something. And, I'm not sure why you're using age and random connections as a basis for your argumentation, but you're not really showing that erudition that I mentioned before. You also keep saying that the past is similar to now, but you're not clarifying what you mean!
In recent years, the two Koreas have seen several armed exchanges between the two countries...that is armed fighting between their borders. I don't know what history you're referring to, but I don't think that Reagan saw North Korea a leg of the Axis of Evil or as a potential WWIII catalytic entity. In fact, prior to 1988, I don't think that most of the world (even at Harvard) could make the distinction between the North and the South. Please enlighten me on what *past* you believe I'm ignoring, cuz in the 80s most of the world didn't know of the "threat" or even the countries. However, world-wide people do know of the North today (though not much...just that it's a "dangerous" place and situation). WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU THINKING?
Apparently your ability to extrapolate meaning when reading is a bit rusty (old man):
I'm not saying that there will be an attack on South Korea. But, I'm living here and foresee 7 years of a$$kissing that has already started. I'm concerned at how South Korea was selected when their international situation is at an all-time high with an internationally deemed "rogue" nation. It's also a bit odd since the SK's policies are hawkish and unfriendly to the NK right before a possible regime change. It just seems a bit strange to select a place that is currently and expecting to undergo such volatile international instability. I'm also curious as to how this will effect the overall impact of the event and whether this selection has been made devoid of the present situation on the peninsula. The selection was neither practical nor logical.
What I'm completely unsure of is why you're so tempered as lend your self-invested, reductionist attitude toward my comments, claiming that I'm ignoring the past. Not sure where you go off thinking such things when my comments above have nothing at all to do with your admittedly aged view of the past.
You're "cautiously optimistic?" Yes, perhaps. But if you look at your prior messages, your brash gung-ho mockery has sure tapered off.
I only hope this is all for the better:
http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/07/113_90935.html |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:24 am Post subject: |
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Why do you say I have a 'gotta be right' attitude? I'm saying based on big sporting events in the past hosted by Korea I am cautiously optimistic of the 2018 Olympics. You are saying they will be a failure because....I haven't really been able to figure it out yet. I'm not trying to be right or wrong, I'm the one saying that if you're so sure one way or the other you have pre-conceived ideas. I'm not going to change your mind, I realize that.
I'm also not trying to be 'age-ist' or whatever with you. But if you hold the position that the North was not seen as a threat or the 88 Olympics were not controversial then you either lived under a rock in the 80s or were not around. I was barely there, too, I'm not some old man, but I remember the first time ever hearing about Korea (both North and South) on the news one night referring to the Olympics (first time I had heard of the that, too) and they had a panel on discussing it and everything. My older sister (not even in Junior High yet, but still very aware of the situation) explained it to me and I had nightmares about evil North Koreans coming for my family. MASH was the most popular TV show at the time and it was about a war in Korea.
Just because people are more aware of the threat of North Korea these days due 24 hour news channels and Bush's speech doesn't mean they are actually more threatening now. It's like saying the Games shouldn't be held in the US now because crime is out of control, when in fact rates have been falling like rocks since the 90s. I'm not saying they're not a threat, either, I'm just saying they're not that much more dangerous today than back in the 80s. If you look it up you'll see all sorts of deadly standoffs along the border throughout the 70s and 80s, along with the discovery of infiltration tunnels and spies.
If you believe that the 2018 Olympics will be a failure that's your choice and like I said I'm not even trying to change your mind. Yes, I was being flippant and sarcastic earlier because there are always people who predict so much doom on every host city selection it's pretty funny to me. I just don't like ignoring the past, that's all. Things are not the exact same now as they were in the 1980s, but I don't think they are as different as you assume, especially since their successful hosting duties of the 2002 WC. I don't have to be right, I could very well be wrong. I've said the whole time it's up to the Korea people to keep their government and industry on track during the process. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
The current NHL bargaining agreement ends next year (2012) and participation in the 2014 Olympics is a huge issue for Russian and other European players. These agreements usually last 5-7 years so 2018 would likely be bundled in that agreement.
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Participation in the 2018 Olympics would not have to be decided then. However, if it is decided I fully anticipate that the NHL will say no. The owners (especially in the south) are overwhelmingly against it. Because they have seen little benefit in terms of popularity of the NHL in the US.
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You think Canadians and Northern Americans won't tune into another US-Canada final at 2am?
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I certainly would. As would the vast majority of hockey fans. However, the owners fail to see the long term benefit.
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| The KHL is a real threat. |
No. The KHL is a minimal threat. There is only one high quality player (Radulov) who is missing from the NHL to play in the KHL.
Many other KHL teams are suffering serious financial problems because of poor attendance.
P.S - I WANT to see the NHL at the 2018 Olympics but I highly doubt that they will be there. |
It is my (limited) understanding that participation in the Olympics is a part of the collective bargaining agreement. I could very well be wrong, though. You're right on you other points, though, I guess I'm just being willfully partially blind on those you brought up. I didn't mean my response to you to be a direct criticism of your original point, it was an honest question about your comment and my thoughts on the subject. I imagine this debate will continue among hockey fans for the next few years.
ps: I just noticed the similarities in our screen names. It's like one of us is a DC superhero that Marvel ripped off. haha. |
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rchristo10
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| You are saying they will be a failure because.... |
No, I'm not.
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| I had nightmares about evil North Koreans coming for my family. MASH was the most popular TV show at the time and it was about a war in Korea. |
Sounds more like a personal problem, not something that could be compared to today's situation. By the way, I also watched MASH. Loved it! And, oh, did you know that less than 30% or so even know that the show was based on the Korean War (thus making it a "difficult" Jeopardy question). Not, something I would use as evidence of similarities between '88 and now.
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| If you look it up you'll see all sorts of deadly standoffs along the border throughout the 70s and 80s, along with the discovery of infiltration tunnels and spies. |
Bull! Name one direct military exchange in the 70 or 80s between the border. Yes, there was a "spy" that somehow ended up in Kwanghuamoon (who was later thought to simply be a military defector), a plane high jacking by Hayumi (but she was a Japanese person...supposedly trained by the North), tunnels, and other claims at tension between the two sides. But there were few if any direct confrontations between NK and SK, like there have been these past few years. And there was no question of what would happen during a regime change in the 1980s (a point that you conveniently ignore with every post and random comparison).
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| If you believe that the 2018 Olympics will be a failure that's your choice... |
Now, I'm feeling sorry for you. You truly do have a reading problem.  I've never claimed that 2018 will be a failure. Please read the bold words below (slowly and carefully):
I'm not saying that there will be an attack on South Korea. But, I'm living here and foresee 7 years of a$$kissing that has already started. I'm concerned at how South Korea was selected when their international situation is at an all-time high with an internationally deemed "rogue" nation. It's also a bit odd since SK's policies are hawkish and unfriendly to NK right before a possible regime change (i.e. the unified team idea is a pretty null proposition). It just seems a bit strange to select a place that is currently and expecting to undergo such volatile international instability. I'm also curious as to how this will effect the overall impact of the event and whether this selection has been made devoid of the present situation on the peninsula. The selection was neither practical nor logical.
I'm seriously feeling sorry for you now. This pathos thing that you're doing it apparently working.  |
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cdninkorea
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| In reference to all the other chicken littles: It's funny how soon we forget the success of the 88 Olympics, both financially and culturally. |
In what way was the '88 Olympics a financial success? Officially the statistics say it made $300 million, but on the expenses side they don't include the $1.5 billion spent on infrastructure. I'm sure some of that was spent on things that continue to benefit the country, and was thus a wise investment, but how much of it was money taken from hard-working citizens and given to construction and hotel companies for buildings used for one event? |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| cdninkorea wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| In reference to all the other chicken littles: It's funny how soon we forget the success of the 88 Olympics, both financially and culturally. |
In what way was the '88 Olympics a financial success? Officially the statistics say it made $300 million, but on the expenses side they don't include the $1.5 billion spent on infrastructure. I'm sure some of that was spent on things that continue to benefit the country, and was thus a wise investment, but how much of it was money taken from hard-working citizens and given to construction and hotel companies for buildings used for one event? |
With all due respect, this is precisely why arguing this subject is pointless. I can bring up all the stats and facts I want and people will say, "Oh sure, but that's just what they want us to believe!" And it's why I was so flippant about it earlier because I've danced this danced before. With things like this people will believe what they want to believe and I'm really not trying to change anyone's mind because as I've stated several times, I don't know how it's going to play out (the future is tricky that way). Beyond that, everyone has different priorities so a benefit to one person is seen as a useless expense to another. That's why I keep saying it's up to the Korean people to keep their government open and on track during the lead up to the Games. And right now a huge majority of Koreans support the 2018 Olympics, so unless you're ready to tell a whole country that you've barely been in why they are wrong and you know better, I'd suggest just sitting back and seeing what happens. Or conversely, questioning the Sochi games which have some very serious issues that the media is ignoring. Or why the London logo looks like Bart and Lisa Simpson engaged in a sexual act... |
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rchristo10
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| cdninkorea wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| In reference to all the other chicken littles: It's funny how soon we forget the success of the 88 Olympics, both financially and culturally. |
In what way was the '88 Olympics a financial success? Officially the statistics say it made $300 million, but on the expenses side they don't include the $1.5 billion spent on infrastructure. I'm sure some of that was spent on things that continue to benefit the country, and was thus a wise investment, but how much of it was money taken from hard-working citizens and given to construction and hotel companies for buildings used for one event? |
With all due respect, this is precisely why arguing this subject is pointless. I can bring up all the stats and facts I want and people will say, "Oh sure, but that's just what they want us to believe!" And it's why I was so flippant about it earlier because I've danced this danced before. With things like this people will believe what they want to believe and I'm really not trying to change anyone's mind because as I've stated several times, I don't know how it's going to play out (the future is tricky that way). Beyond that, everyone has different priorities so a benefit to one person is seen as a useless expense to another. That's why I keep saying it's up to the Korean people to keep their government open and on track during the lead up to the Games. And right now a huge majority of Koreans support the 2018 Olympics, so unless you're ready to tell a whole country that you've barely been in why they are wrong and you know better, I'd suggest just sitting back and seeing what happens. Or conversely, questioning the Sochi games which have some very serious issues that the media is ignoring. Or why the London logo looks like Bart and Lisa Simpson engaged in a sexual act... |
Interesting points. What Sochi game "serious issues" have you uncovered that the media is ignoring??? I honestly don't know much about the Sochi games (not sure of why you're talking about them either...), but interesting to know... |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| rchristo10 wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| cdninkorea wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| In reference to all the other chicken littles: It's funny how soon we forget the success of the 88 Olympics, both financially and culturally. |
In what way was the '88 Olympics a financial success? Officially the statistics say it made $300 million, but on the expenses side they don't include the $1.5 billion spent on infrastructure. I'm sure some of that was spent on things that continue to benefit the country, and was thus a wise investment, but how much of it was money taken from hard-working citizens and given to construction and hotel companies for buildings used for one event? |
With all due respect, this is precisely why arguing this subject is pointless. I can bring up all the stats and facts I want and people will say, "Oh sure, but that's just what they want us to believe!" And it's why I was so flippant about it earlier because I've danced this danced before. With things like this people will believe what they want to believe and I'm really not trying to change anyone's mind because as I've stated several times, I don't know how it's going to play out (the future is tricky that way). Beyond that, everyone has different priorities so a benefit to one person is seen as a useless expense to another. That's why I keep saying it's up to the Korean people to keep their government open and on track during the lead up to the Games. And right now a huge majority of Koreans support the 2018 Olympics, so unless you're ready to tell a whole country that you've barely been in why they are wrong and you know better, I'd suggest just sitting back and seeing what happens. Or conversely, questioning the Sochi games which have some very serious issues that the media is ignoring. Or why the London logo looks like Bart and Lisa Simpson engaged in a sexual act... |
Interesting points. What Sochi game "serious issues" have you uncovered that the media is ignoring??? I honestly don't know much about the Sochi games (not sure of why you're talking about them either...), but interesting to know... |
I brought up the Sochi games as an example of where people should be turning their attention to as far as the Olympics go. It seems a bit odd to be up in arms about something that hasn't even taken off yet while ignoring something that is actually a problem (within the same scope, ie the Olympics). There have been reports of vast damage to the ecosystem of the area as well as bribes, corruption and misappropriation of funds. I'm not talking about a condo unit that isn't sold less than a year after the games (in a housing market that just crashed). The threat of terrorism in the region is very real with demonstratable evidence of terrible acts within the last decade. There's no point on linking here when Google is available if you like. And I should rephrase my sentence to say that the media isn't ignoring the issue completely, but due to Russia's, uh, historic control of information, there's not much accurate facts out there.
What I'm trying to say is, when you paint all Olympic Games with the same brush you tend to lose focus of some very real problems that are unique to different venues. It's like the guy who always complains about Korea. After a while you just stop listening, and even start mocking him, even if he has some relevent points lost somewhere in there. So if you're out there the day after Pyeongchang's win declaring it "Hell", no one's going to be listening to you in 4 years when you're calling attention to people being forcefully relocated. |
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rchristo10
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| rchristo10 wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| cdninkorea wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| In reference to all the other chicken littles: It's funny how soon we forget the success of the 88 Olympics, both financially and culturally. |
In what way was the '88 Olympics a financial success? Officially the statistics say it made $300 million, but on the expenses side they don't include the $1.5 billion spent on infrastructure. I'm sure some of that was spent on things that continue to benefit the country, and was thus a wise investment, but how much of it was money taken from hard-working citizens and given to construction and hotel companies for buildings used for one event? |
With all due respect, this is precisely why arguing this subject is pointless. I can bring up all the stats and facts I want and people will say, "Oh sure, but that's just what they want us to believe!" And it's why I was so flippant about it earlier because I've danced this danced before. With things like this people will believe what they want to believe and I'm really not trying to change anyone's mind because as I've stated several times, I don't know how it's going to play out (the future is tricky that way). Beyond that, everyone has different priorities so a benefit to one person is seen as a useless expense to another. That's why I keep saying it's up to the Korean people to keep their government open and on track during the lead up to the Games. And right now a huge majority of Koreans support the 2018 Olympics, so unless you're ready to tell a whole country that you've barely been in why they are wrong and you know better, I'd suggest just sitting back and seeing what happens. Or conversely, questioning the Sochi games which have some very serious issues that the media is ignoring. Or why the London logo looks like Bart and Lisa Simpson engaged in a sexual act... |
Interesting points. What Sochi game "serious issues" have you uncovered that the media is ignoring??? I honestly don't know much about the Sochi games (not sure of why you're talking about them either...), but interesting to know... |
I brought up the Sochi games as an example of where people should be turning their attention to as far as the Olympics go. It seems a bit odd to be up in arms about something that hasn't even taken off yet while ignoring something that is actually a problem (within the same scope, ie the Olympics). There have been reports of vast damage to the ecosystem of the area as well as bribes, corruption and misappropriation of funds. I'm not talking about a condo unit that isn't sold less than a year after the games (in a housing market that just crashed). The threat of terrorism in the region is very real with demonstratable evidence of terrible acts within the last decade. There's no point on linking here when Google is available if you like. And I should rephrase my sentence to say that the media isn't ignoring the issue completely, but due to Russia's, uh, historic control of information, there's not much accurate facts out there.
What I'm trying to say is, when you paint all Olympic Games with the same brush you tend to lose focus of some very real problems that are unique to different venues. It's like the guy who always complains about Korea. After a while you just stop listening, and even start mocking him, even if he has some relevent points lost somewhere in there. So if you're out there the day after Pyeongchang's win declaring it "Hell", no one's going to be listening to you in 4 years when you're calling attention to people being forcefully relocated. |
Do you reread what you write or think before you write it?
| Quote: |
| I brought up the Sochi games as an example of where people should be turning their attention to as far as the Olympics go. It seems a bit odd to be up in arms about something that hasn't even taken off yet while ignoring something that is actually a problem (within the same scope, ie the Olympics). |
Is it just me or are you saying we should stop talking about the future (2018) and instead talk about the future (2014)? The Sochi games has nothing to do with any of my points regarding South Korea's hosting the games in 2018. It's like you're having an internal conflict with yourself.
| Quote: |
| And I should rephrase my sentence to say that the media isn't ignoring the issue completely, but due to Russia's, uh, historic control of information, there's not much accurate facts out there. |
So what you're saying is....hmm....that you don't know what you're saying?
And just for clarification, how many weapons of (limited...or what have you) destruction are pointed at Sochi? The name of the rogue nation you're referring to, perhaps? And by all mean PLEASE DO POST THOSE GOOGLE SITES, they'd work wonders for patching all the holes in your statements.
Sometimes when I write something then come back to it days later, I realize how ridiculous it was. The following is definitely something that after a month or so you'll likely realize as totally convoluted and about the dumbest logic (?) ever:
| Quote: |
| What I'm trying to say is, when you paint all Olympic Games with the same brush you tend to lose focus of some very real problems that are unique to different venues. It's like the guy who always complains about Korea. After a while you just stop listening, and even start mocking him, even if he has some relevent points lost somewhere in there. So if you're out there the day after Pyeongchang's win declaring it "Hell", no one's going to be listening to you in 4 years when you're calling attention to people being forcefully relocated. |
Most amusing. Most amusing. Like a well-attuned scatterbrain if there is such a creature.  And you likely teach people to think this way.
What in the world makes you consistently think that I'm an Olympiologist? I'm talking about the selection of South Korea as host of the 2018 Olympics--nothing more, nothing less. |
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