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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:58 pm Post subject: Grammar question - been vs. gone |
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I try not to make the been/gone slip. I've always thought the difference is that been needs to be used for completed visits. But yesterday I came across a grammar worksheet with the following answer:
She is known to have gone(been) to Paris for her last summer vacation.
It states that both gone/been can be used in that sentence. I'd only use
"been". Are both correct?
Thanks for any help with this one. |
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SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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gone is used when someone is in the process of going to. As in, they have not returned yet.
E.g.
He's gone to the mountain. He will not return until tomorrow night
been is used when you have completed the journey/trip.
E.g.
I have been to the cinema many times.
In this example, the answer could be both depending on context. If she is still in Paris, it is gone, if she has returned, use been. |
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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for the reply. You confirmed that my understanding was correct. I guess the problem comes is that to me it seems clear in the sentence that she has returned, but I guess that is not necessarily the case. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Even though gone is past tense, I think of it as future in some cases. For example, you are your friend are deciding which restaurant to "go to". You wouldn't say, "Have you ever been at this restaurant?" Instead, you would say, "Have you ever gone to this restaurant?"
Technically, it's still past, but it's in a suggestive way eliciting an invitation for a future event. Maybe they will decide to go to that restaurant.
We sometimes combine the two and get "been to", getting around the at/in location problem. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:17 am Post subject: Re: Grammar question - been vs. gone |
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| raewon wrote: |
I try not to make the been/gone slip. I've always thought the difference is that been needs to be used for completed visits. But yesterday I came across a grammar worksheet with the following answer:
She is known to have gone(been) to Paris for her last summer vacation.
It states that both gone/been can be used in that sentence. I'd only use
"been". Are both correct?
Thanks for any help with this one. |
Both are correct. Use of 'gone' does not contain the information that she came back, but neither does it imply that she is still there given that this took place last summer i.e. in a finished past time.
The reason 'She has gone to Paris' implies that she is still there is because common understanding places the event in an unfinished time frame that includes the present. If you change it to 'She has gone to Paris before' it could work, because then it's just an unspecified past time. |
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jizza
Joined: 24 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:03 am Post subject: |
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I commend teachers for learning their craft but just want to caution that in the classroom, going into this much detail with students is not advised!
Less is more. Keep the lesson simple. There are better things to spend time on than nitpick details that 99% of Native speakers wouldn't even notice. |
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SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
For example, you are your friend are deciding which restaurant to "go to". You wouldn't say, "Have you ever been at this restaurant?" Instead, you would say, "Have you ever gone to this restaurant?"
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BZZZZ. Grammar Fail.
You would indeed say, "Have you been to this restaurant?" Gone would be incorrect. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| SeoulNate wrote: |
| koreatimes wrote: |
For example, you are your friend are deciding which restaurant to "go to". You wouldn't say, "Have you ever been at this restaurant?" Instead, you would say, "Have you ever gone to this restaurant?"
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BZZZZ. Grammar Fail.
You would indeed say, "Have you been to this restaurant?" Gone would be incorrect. |
In conversation, I hear it used often. Like saying, "Have you tried this dish?"
It's not a basic grammar element which you can say right or wrong. You need to understand the context.
I guess you could always jump a guy in the alley if they don't use the wording you prefer  |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
Even though gone is past tense, I think of it as future in some cases. For example, you are your friend are deciding which restaurant to "go to". You wouldn't say, "Have you ever been at this restaurant?" Instead, you would say, "Have you ever gone to this restaurant?"
Technically, it's still past, but it's in a suggestive way eliciting an invitation for a future event. Maybe they will decide to go to that restaurant.
We sometimes combine the two and get "been to", getting around the at/in location problem. |
I have never used "Have you ever gone to this restaurant". Is that from some rural dialect of the U.S.? The correct way to this is: "Have you ever been to that restaurant". With been in my view, you are asking if someone has been to a location at least one time and you can use been when referring to someone having gone somewhere recently- "Have you been to Europe recently?"
With the word gone, you would say "Where is Jack? He is gone". You can also substitute the word an auxiliary plus gone for went. He has gone to the store/He went to the store.
I am not a grammarian. This is my understanding. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:13 am Post subject: |
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In rural Canuckistahnnn people use "Have you ever gone to that restaurant?" (or whatever location) just as much as "Have you ever been to that restaurant?" I've heard Americans use it quite often as well.
They are often interchangeable in informal contexts, but you still should know when they are not.
EX: I've been gone from Korea for 18 months now.
You would never say I've gone been. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
In rural Canuckistahnnn people use "Have you ever gone to that restaurant?" (or whatever location) just as much as "Have you ever been to that restaurant?" I've heard Americans use it quite often as well.
They are often interchangeable in informal contexts, but you still should know when they are not.
EX: I've been gone from Korea for 18 months now.
You would never say I've gone been. |
Yeah, I've heard this in rural speech. It's wrong in the sense of it not being the standard, but not wrong in the context of a dialogue. It's not something I would teach students, but I wouldn't have gone down hard on the guy who sad it because some people in Ontario and Texas will say that. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| some people in Ontario and Texas will say that |
| Quote: |
| With the word gone, you would say "Where is Jack? He is gone". |
I have never used or heard people just say "He is gone |"
They are more likely to say, "He left".
"He is gone" gives the impression the person is lost, or maybe they are referring to a pet that wandered off.
Really, too many of you are using grammar textbooks to dictate how people behave in the real world. That's what makes it so hard for a student to use the language because they are constantly told to say specific terms at specific times instead of understanding context. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| some people in Ontario and Texas will say that |
| Quote: |
| With the word gone, you would say "Where is Jack? He is gone". |
I have never used or heard people just say "He is gone |"
They are more likely to say, "He left".
"He is gone" gives the impression the person is lost, or maybe they are referring to a pet that wandered off.
Really, too many of you are using grammar textbooks to dictate how people behave in the real world. That's what makes it so hard for a student to use the language because they are constantly told to say specific terms at specific times instead of understanding context. |
I guess I was thinking of a situation where you're waiting for someone, and he took off. He's gone. You can use it if someone is trying to see someone before he goes. It depends on the context.
Obviously, you can't say "Have you been to lunch". It doesn't sound right.
I associate been with having frequented a place before. Have you gone to lunch? I would say "gone to lunch". Here, it doesn't connect to having frequented or been to a place at a certain time. I think that's the difference for me. There is a difference between using them. Sometimes, gone and been can be used interchangeably like you did earlier but in regional dialects. It wasn't "wrong", but it is not the "standard".
What is wrong and what is right is somewhat arbitrary. We don't speak like text books.
I can say "Jack left the house". If say he's gone, it doesn't mean he's lost. He went out. You'd ask where or the person would tell you. The word gone here would mean he left his domicile.
"He has gone to the store". (It's something he does here and there).
Has he been to the store. (Has he ever been there before).
This reminds me of an ESL linguistics discussion, and things are clearly wrong if few people accept what is said. Even grammatical errors are simply part of regional dialects in many cases. Of course, I wouldn't teach people dialect. |
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