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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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 Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
The technology angle was not discussed that widely before but it is coming up fast in education.
I already know several people working for Korean schoolboards as instructional designers with the goal of introducing more tech into the classroom.
There are already a few companies set up back here in Canada and the US that offer certified teachers to Korean schools via video conferencing in the classroom.
This meets one of the goals of the PS: pronounciation assistance and interaction with a foreigner without having the foreigner physically there (cost savings are significant).
The system is still in its relative infancy but it has traction and it is improving all the time.
This can certainly impact how PS, schoolboards, educational offices view their budget allocations.
This shift to distance education or e-learning is in flull swing back here too for many courses, corporate training and public sector PD.
I know two American teachers (met them at a conference in Phoenix last year) who work with a company that offers their servives to Korean elementary schools. They thoughroughly enjoy the work and the K-school is pretty happy with the results. |
I hope to hell somebody is listening to you.
As a long-time lover of foreign languages I have crossed paths with more than a few programs over the years. I can safely report that the Foreign Language industry has not been asleep at the switch.
Foreign Language programs have become incredibly more complex and comprehensive since the days when people used casette tapes, rote dialogues and and black boards. The on-line Universities using SKYPE-like programs for long-distance interaction with native speakers has already been mentioned. In addition, ROSETTA STONE has a recombitant interractive feature as well as audiological input for comparing the individual's pronunciation to a recognized standard. Essentially what we are seeing is the attempt to automate the Education profession with the Human component being relegated to a supporting role. Classes are increasingly moving towards DIY which is why many of the job opportunities are now stipulating "classroom hours" for their TESOL requirements.
I bet a lot of University grads reading this were bemused when they walked into their 100 Level Frosh classes and saw 200 fresh faces sitting in an auditorium being lectured by a reel-to-reel recording and a grad student to turn it off at the end. That was decades ago and things didn't stop there.
You know how your contracts read that materials produced by you are the property of your employer? How many units does the typical HAGWON need before they simply scan them into a computer and publish units for use by upscale students with KINDLES?
But, hey....what do I know.......
Regards. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| Malislamusrex wrote: |
I was pointing out the obvious, I am just explaining that Korea does not have the budget or the ambition to teach English like some of it's more affluent neighbors.
You can give me Graddol's code-swithing argument, or any number of foreign V national teachers arguments.... but the fact is Asian countries are instrumentally motivated to learn English as Gardner explains... and for students to become intergratievely motivated one would assume that they must embrace a foreign or even national motivation to joi the English speaking elite within Korea. The way to do this is with foreign teacher and foreign culture.... if you would like I could send you my paper
] |
And why can this not be done via long distance learning as described above?
The technology gets better and cheaper every year. |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:37 am Post subject: |
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Korea's once stern ambition was to match Japan, but the reality is she can't , it is unfortunate but Korea does not have the economic capacity to match Japan. Also as you mention Japan has had a 30 year head start on Korea, Korea thought if they threw money on the problem by hiring any Tom Dick and Harry with a degree it would help them improve their English.
We all have to accept Korea is not Japan, and the changes that have happened in Japan and their road towards globalization happened much before the process begun in Korea, the major problem with Korea is 1/2 the students are able to understand that the English language holds structures that are contrary to a confucianism and allow individuals to question authority
The fact that what for the most part GEPIK teacher are teaching students is intuition, questioning, and a different way of thinking is a direct challenge to the norm of Korean politicians negatively effect their power base which has been for the most part dictatorial is not the social reform the government wants.
The government wants a English speaking work force which is a competitive advantage globally, but will not accept the challenges that come with it.
| JD_Tiberius wrote: |
| Korea needs to remember, Japan still has the JET programme, still going strong, over 40 years after the first native english teachers were introduced to Japanese public schools from the UK. Korea will fail, and by god it will EPIK-ly fail, then then when the dust has settled, the "bright sparks" running this country will turn around and say "whoopsie we made a boo-boo!" and bring back native English teachers |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:38 am Post subject: |
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I don't understand your point here.... apologies.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Malislamusrex wrote: |
I was pointing out the obvious, I am just explaining that Korea does not have the budget or the ambition to teach English like some of it's more affluent neighbors.
You can give me Graddol's code-swithing argument, or any number of foreign V national teachers arguments.... but the fact is Asian countries are instrumentally motivated to learn English as Gardner explains... and for students to become intergratievely motivated one would assume that they must embrace a foreign or even national motivation to joi the English speaking elite within Korea. The way to do this is with foreign teacher and foreign culture.... if you would like I could send you my paper
] |
And why can this not be done via long distance learning as described above?
The technology gets better and cheaper every year. |
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brakattack
Joined: 08 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Once again this whole fiasco is making me unsure of Korea's specific motivations in learning English in the first place or what they want to get out of it. If the purpose is based entirely on economic motivations, which I suspect it is, do they really think they will continue to increase the English level country-wide to the point that Korean businesspeople can conduct business successfully with English speakers when their overall goal is to keep foreigners at arms (more like oceans) length? I just don't see how e-learning or the English robots are going to improve their communication skills. The key word here is "communication" which includes a lot more than just speaking or writing a language.
Where will things such as not gasping as the sight of a non-Korean or learning not to insist that kimchi cures diseases at first meeting be taught? How will they come to understand that many English speaking countries aren't just full of white people but people of a range of ethnicities? I understand that a lot of the tech supporters in Korea will claim they are driven by a desire to reduce costs when the real reason is an underlying xenophobia. If Korea wants to continue to conduct business abroad and continue moving up in the world then they will have to get over their xenophobia or at least learn to cover it up more effectively (ahem Japan ahem). Reducing or completely eradicating face-to-face interaction and cultural exchange with foreigners will only hurt them in the long run.
Its a real shame about GEPIK. You can debate how effective or ineffective public NETs are in teaching the English language but the fact that so many of these kids are going to lose their chance to have a much more personal relationship with a foreigner than they will get in a hagwon is a sad thing. The only real entity that will benefit from the phasing out of public school NETs is the hagwons. Ok Korea, lets give parents further incentive to send off their kids to hagwons which will inadvertently increase the stress of these kids and continue to harm their social development. You'll realize one way or another that the overall communication proficiency of Koreans interacting with foreigners will begin to plummet.
Ah. A sad day indeed and even sadder that this will hit EPIK eventually as well. Its a shame that Korea is doing this to itself but such are the consequences of xenophobia. Luckily I don't plan on staying in this country long enough to observe the long-term consequences of these decisions. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Malislamusrex wrote: |
I don't understand your point here.... apologies.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Malislamusrex wrote: |
I was pointing out the obvious, I am just explaining that Korea does not have the budget or the ambition to teach English like some of it's more affluent neighbors.
You can give me Graddol's code-swithing argument, or any number of foreign V national teachers arguments.... but the fact is Asian countries are instrumentally motivated to learn English as Gardner explains... and for students to become intergratievely motivated one would assume that they must embrace a foreign or even national motivation to joi the English speaking elite within Korea. The way to do this is with foreign teacher and foreign culture.... if you would like I could send you my paper
] |
And why can this not be done via long distance learning as described above?
The technology gets better and cheaper every year. |
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You said students must "embrace a foreign or even national motivation to joi[n] the English speaking elite within Korea. The way to do this is with foreign teachers and foreign culture...."
And I said why can this embrace not be done via long distance learning (by using Skype-like methods)?
Why can they not hire qualified teachers (which they ARE already doing BTW) to teach over the Internet? |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| Malislamusrex wrote: |
Korea's once stern ambition was to match Japan, but the reality is she can't , it is unfortunate but Korea does not have the economic capacity to match Japan. Also as you mention Japan has had a 30 year head start on Korea, Korea thought if they threw money on the problem by hiring any Tom Dick and Harry with a degree it would help them improve their English.
We all have to accept Korea is not Japan, and the changes that have happened in Japan and their road towards globalization happened much before the process begun in Korea, the major problem with Korea is 1/2 the students are able to understand that the English language holds structures that are contrary to a confucianism and allow individuals to question authority
The fact that what for the most part GEPIK teacher are teaching students is intuition, questioning, and a different way of thinking is a direct challenge to the norm of Korean politicians negatively effect their power base which has been for the most part dictatorial is not the social reform the government wants.
The government wants a English speaking work force which is a competitive advantage globally, but will not accept the challenges that come with it.
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And this is the cutting-edge of pedagogy, now, and as it was in the 19th Century. The TONG KAK (IE. "Eastern Learning") Rebellion of 1894 was driven in no small part by the fear that Western practices would undermine establish Korean norms and culture. This has not changed. We modern educators can make a difference by contributing to the effort of Korean educators in developing new approaches that do not impinge on extant Neo-Confucian norms.
I think the Japanese culture, with its Business model of "consensus building" may hold the key. If it can be demonstrated that creativity, as a constructive contribution to growth, is an acceptable expression of individuality, within the context of one's "place" we may well turn a page in this question. Korean history is replete with highly critical communications to the Korean king which were accepted due to their recognition as being the expression of an individual acting within the context of his position. Where I think we Westerners (especially Americans) have a problem with this is that there can be no circumventing (IE. "going over the head of") the structure which is the stuff many of our heroic figures are made of. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:57 am Post subject: |
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You make a good point here..... the fact is communication.
does a robot explain communication... no it is a human process.
The fact is Korea has not had the time to embrace foreigners and culture, but still has a demand for English language for business.
It is all most as if the governmental say "teach us English for business" but screw you as a person.... it is counter productive because the process of doing business is a process of understanding communication.
Bottom line..... Korea has lots it's way, sees education as a fast buck and will suffer long term because of it's inability to look after visitors, not everyone here is a HIV bum as they make out, some of us will go back home and remember this......
| brakattack wrote: |
Once again this whole fiasco is making me unsure of Korea's specific motivations in learning English in the first place or what they want to get out of it. If the purpose is based entirely on economic motivations, which I suspect it is, do they really think they will continue to increase the English level country-wide to the point that Korean businesspeople can conduct business successfully with English speakers when their overall goal is to keep foreigners at arms (more like oceans) length? I just don't see how e-learning or the English robots are going to improve their communication skills. The key word here is "communication" which includes a lot more than just speaking or writing a language.
Where will things such as not gasping as the sight of a non-Korean or learning not to insist that kimchi cures diseases at first meeting be taught? How will they come to understand that many English speaking countries aren't just full of white people but people of a range of ethnicities? I understand that a lot of the tech supporters in Korea will claim they are driven by a desire to reduce costs when the real reason is an underlying xenophobia. If Korea wants to continue to conduct business abroad and continue moving up in the world then they will have to get over their xenophobia or at least learn to cover it up more effectively (ahem Japan ahem). Reducing or completely eradicating face-to-face interaction and cultural exchange with foreigners will only hurt them in the long run.
Its a real shame about GEPIK. You can debate how effective or ineffective public NETs are in teaching the English language but the fact that so many of these kids are going to lose their chance to have a much more personal relationship with a foreigner than they will get in a hagwon is a sad thing. The only real entity that will benefit from the phasing out of public school NETs is the hagwons. Ok Korea, lets give parents further incentive to send off their kids to hagwons which will inadvertently increase the stress of these kids and continue to harm their social development. You'll realize one way or another that the overall communication proficiency of Koreans interacting with foreigners will begin to plummet.
Ah. A sad day indeed and even sadder that this will hit EPIK eventually as well. Its a shame that Korea is doing this to itself but such are the consequences of xenophobia. Luckily I don't plan on staying in this country long enough to observe the long-term consequences of these decisions. |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:00 am Post subject: |
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read Saigo Nakamura....
He is the educator who dominated Korea, and at the same time Westernized Japan, he made Korea the second largest economy in the world.
| Malislamusrex wrote: |
You make a good point here..... the fact is communication.
does a robot explain communication... no it is a human process.
The fact is Korea has not had the time to embrace foreigners and culture, but still has a demand for English language for business.
It is all most as if the governmental say "teach us English for business" but screw you as a person.... it is counter productive because the process of doing business is a process of understanding communication.
Bottom line..... Korea has lots it's way, sees education as a fast buck and will suffer long term because of it's inability to look after visitors, not everyone here is a HIV bum as they make out, some of us will go back home and remember this......
| brakattack wrote: |
Once again this whole fiasco is making me unsure of Korea's specific motivations in learning English in the first place or what they want to get out of it. If the purpose is based entirely on economic motivations, which I suspect it is, do they really think they will continue to increase the English level country-wide to the point that Korean businesspeople can conduct business successfully with English speakers when their overall goal is to keep foreigners at arms (more like oceans) length? I just don't see how e-learning or the English robots are going to improve their communication skills. The key word here is "communication" which includes a lot more than just speaking or writing a language.
Where will things such as not gasping as the sight of a non-Korean or learning not to insist that kimchi cures diseases at first meeting be taught? How will they come to understand that many English speaking countries aren't just full of white people but people of a range of ethnicities? I understand that a lot of the tech supporters in Korea will claim they are driven by a desire to reduce costs when the real reason is an underlying xenophobia. If Korea wants to continue to conduct business abroad and continue moving up in the world then they will have to get over their xenophobia or at least learn to cover it up more effectively (ahem Japan ahem). Reducing or completely eradicating face-to-face interaction and cultural exchange with foreigners will only hurt them in the long run.
Its a real shame about GEPIK. You can debate how effective or ineffective public NETs are in teaching the English language but the fact that so many of these kids are going to lose their chance to have a much more personal relationship with a foreigner than they will get in a hagwon is a sad thing. The only real entity that will benefit from the phasing out of public school NETs is the hagwons. Ok Korea, lets give parents further incentive to send off their kids to hagwons which will inadvertently increase the stress of these kids and continue to harm their social development. You'll realize one way or another that the overall communication proficiency of Koreans interacting with foreigners will begin to plummet.
Ah. A sad day indeed and even sadder that this will hit EPIK eventually as well. Its a shame that Korea is doing this to itself but such are the consequences of xenophobia. Luckily I don't plan on staying in this country long enough to observe the long-term consequences of these decisions. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Malislamusrex wrote: |
Bottom line..... Korea has lots it's way, sees education as a fast buck and will suffer long term because of it's inability to look after visitors, not everyone here is a HIV bum as they make out, some of us will go back home and remember this......
] |
Now now let's keep things in perspective. What with the numbers of troops, and 3D workers here...English teachers are a very small percentage of the foreign population. And of that percentage of the population only E-2's or those who work at a public school are tested for HIV. |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:03 am Post subject: |
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This is a debate we will have via messages... it is not for this forum, I will send you my work... I look forward to it.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Malislamusrex wrote: |
I don't understand your point here.... apologies.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Malislamusrex wrote: |
I was pointing out the obvious, I am just explaining that Korea does not have the budget or the ambition to teach English like some of it's more affluent neighbors.
You can give me Graddol's code-swithing argument, or any number of foreign V national teachers arguments.... but the fact is Asian countries are instrumentally motivated to learn English as Gardner explains... and for students to become intergratievely motivated one would assume that they must embrace a foreign or even national motivation to joi the English speaking elite within Korea. The way to do this is with foreign teacher and foreign culture.... if you would like I could send you my paper
] |
And why can this not be done via long distance learning as described above?
The technology gets better and cheaper every year. |
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You said students must "embrace a foreign or even national motivation to joi[n] the English speaking elite within Korea. The way to do this is with foreign teachers and foreign culture...."
And I said why can this embrace not be done via long distance learning (by using Skype-like methods)?
Why can they not hire qualified teachers (which they ARE already doing BTW) to teach over the Internet? |
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rainism
Joined: 13 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:07 am Post subject: |
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- agreed about technological advances, teleconferencing, skype etc.
this will only move forward and will reduce demand for NET's, especially
beginning level students.
- also agreed about the political problem of which school "deserves" a NET
and which doesn't. Nonetheless, tough decisions will have to be made.
- I don't see why anyone here would believe their job is "safe". I approach it
with the sense that my job is "safe" until my year by year contract runs out
I have no sense of entitlement or safety beyond the yearly expiration date. |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:13 am Post subject: |
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But we are considered the lowest of the low......
I'm here on a holiday, and they say... you are dirty, what does that say about the mentality people in Korea? will they believe that the dear leader is their savior?
I need this job like I need a bullet in the brain, but they have made assumptions where we stand in the pecking order.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Malislamusrex wrote: |
Bottom line..... Korea has lots it's way, sees education as a fast buck and will suffer long term because of it's inability to look after visitors, not everyone here is a HIV bum as they make out, some of us will go back home and remember this......
] |
Now now let's keep things in perspective. What with the numbers of troops, and 3D workers here...English teachers are a very small percentage of the foreign population. And of that percentage of the population only E-2's or those who work at a public school are tested for HIV. |
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rainism
Joined: 13 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Malislamusrex wrote: |
But we are considered the lowest of the low......
I'm here on a holiday, and they say... you are dirty, what does that say about the mentality people in Korea? will they believe that the dear leader is their savior?
I need this job like I need a bullet in the brain, but they have made assumptions where we stand in the pecking order.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Malislamusrex wrote: |
Bottom line..... Korea has lots it's way, sees education as a fast buck and will suffer long term because of it's inability to look after visitors, not everyone here is a HIV bum as they make out, some of us will go back home and remember this......
] |
Now now let's keep things in perspective. What with the numbers of troops, and 3D workers here...English teachers are a very small percentage of the foreign population. And of that percentage of the population only E-2's or those who work at a public school are tested for HIV. |
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in fairness, at least to my Korean coteachers, and at least some other Korean teachers at my school, they actually want me here and don't consider me some hiv infected dirty "foreigner" or what have you.
I'm sure there are others in similar situations. I'm also sure there are at least some K teachers at my school who may view me in that way, but they keep such views to themselves. |
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ZIFA
Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: Dici che il fiume..Trova la via al mare
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| brakattack wrote: |
| do they really think they will continue to increase the English level country-wide to the point that Korean businesspeople can conduct business successfully with English speakers when their overall goal is to keep foreigners at arms (more like oceans) length? |
Up until about 16 years ago the main emphasis was on written English, because they wanted to produce people who could read foreign documents and emails. Speaking skills were not taught, because the idea of personally interracting with foreigners was beyond the pale. It was hoped that such drastic steps would prove unecessary.
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| Where will things such as not gasping as the sight of a non-Korean or learning not to insist that kimchi cures diseases at first meeting be taught?Reducing or completely eradicating face-to-face interaction and cultural exchange with foreigners will only hurt them in the long run. |
It already has in some cases:
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Gyeonggi-do council members horrified some Nike employees in Portland by fondling some statues and "behaving like immature teenagers." The politicians claim it was a cultural misunderstanding.
Regional council members' angered an international sports goods maker through making sexually explicit gestures during their visit to its headquarters abroad. The politicians quickly tried to explain themselves, claiming ``difference of culture'' as an excuse, but businessmen in the United States called for an apology and prohibited the council members from visiting them again. |
http://briandeutsch.blogspot.com/2008/05/stupid-insensitive-nike-doesnt.html
| Quote: |
| so many of these kids are going to lose their chance to have a much more personal relationship with a foreigner than they will get in a hagwon is a sad thing. |
To be fair, I have always had much more interaction with students in hakwons than I ever did in the PS.
| Quote: |
| Ah. A sad day indeed and even sadder that this will hit EPIK eventually as well. Its a shame that Korea is doing this to itself but such are the consequences of xenophobia. Luckily I don't plan on staying in this country long enough to observe the long-term consequences of these decisions. |
Korea tends to take two steps forward one step back. Remember we are still in the most homogenous country on earth, and 42% of Koreans have never spoken to a foreigner. Korea is unique in this respect, and as such, they are still very vulnerable to home-grown anti-foreign propoganda. They only ever hear one version of events.
The dismantling of GEPIK was an inside job by jealous Korean teachers. We're in a backward phase. Generally speaking though, korea tends to veer from one extreme to the other. My guess is that things will change dramatically in the run-up to PyeongChang. |
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