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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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 Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| StudentInKorea wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
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| Most of the stories right now seem to be running with the right-wing Christian fundamentalist description. |
Without any further information to back up why they are describing him as such. |
His 1500 page manifest discribes him as a "members of the Knight's Templars who should defend Christian Europe". It is obvious that his view of the religion is very different from mainstream Norwegian Christians.
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The killer is not a Christian fundamentalist. He hadn't been to a church since he was a teenager. He wrote: "I guess I'm not an excessively religious man. I am first and foremost a man of logic." And: "myself and many more like me do not necessarily have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God."
He is not a Christian fundamentalist; he's simply evil. |
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Stout
Joined: 28 May 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/26/reminders-that-norwegian-_n_910097.html
Over at Salon, Alex Pareene notes that commentators of the right-ish extraction are taking grave offense at any reminder of the fact that Norwegian terrorist Anders Behring Breivik was a Christian. As Pareene points out, that Breivik was Christian is one of the more basic, unadorned and easy-to-grasp facts about the man:
Breivik chose to be baptized at age 15. He self-identified as "Christian" on his Facebook page. He thought "Christianity should recombine under the banner of a reconstituted and traditionalist Catholic Church" or, later, under a new (traditionalist) European Church...he considers himself to be fighting in the name of "our Christian cultural heritage." He supports a reconstituted Knights Templar devoted to winning a war against Islam in the name of Christianity. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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. . .
Last edited by Kuros on Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Breivik chose to be baptized at age 15. He self-identified as "Christian" on his Facebook page. He thought "Christianity should recombine under the banner of a reconstituted and traditionalist Catholic Church" or, later, under a new (traditionalist) European Church...he considers himself to be fighting in the name of "our Christian cultural heritage." He supports a reconstituted Knights Templar devoted to winning a war against Islam in the name of Christianity |
The man had constructed his own bizarre ideology and had fantasies about being a 'knight' leading a 'crusade'. I know some on the left would like to use him as an example that 'Christian fundamentalists' are 'just as dangerous' as their Muslim counterparts, but the parallels between the two are tenuous at best. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| The Christian angle is wierd. I had always though that type of hardcore supremacists were sort of psuedo pagan types. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
| The Christian angle is wierd. I had always though that type of hardcore supremacists were sort of psuedo pagan types. |
On the Stormfront forums there are a mix of both, but Christians seem to outnumber the pagans. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| How very American of you. |
As opposed to what? Getting into the fetal position to wait for what's coming? |
Has increased gun ownership in the US made it a safer place?
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Breivik chose to be baptized at age 15. He self-identified as "Christian" on his Facebook page. He thought "Christianity should recombine under the banner of a reconstituted and traditionalist Catholic Church" or, later, under a new (traditionalist) European Church...he considers himself to be fighting in the name of "our Christian cultural heritage." He supports a reconstituted Knights Templar devoted to winning a war against Islam in the name of Christianity |
The man had constructed his own bizarre ideology and had fantasies about being a 'knight' leading a 'crusade'. I know some on the left would like to use him as an example that 'Christian fundamentalists' are 'just as dangerous' as their Muslim counterparts, but the parallels between the two are tenuous at best. |
Not to me. When I talk to my Muslim friends, they are often disgusted and confused by Muslim extremists. I would view this guy in the same light. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| How very American of you. |
As opposed to what? Getting into the fetal position to wait for what's coming? |
Has increased gun ownership in the US made it a safer place?
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Debatably safer than Canada in many regards, yes. Look up carjacking rates, or break&enters, or rapes. All lower in the US than in Canada; debatably because the US allows its responsible citizens the freedom to pack heat. Break&entering is arguably lower in the US since trespassers can legally be shot and killed on site in many states.
The homicide rate in the US is about 2.5x higher than Canada's, however, mostly attributed to crime rates in inner-city poorer, black neighborhoods. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that Breivik is not a Christian fundamentalist in the way that term is normally understood. A traditional fundamentalist could not have written the following:
"As this is a cultural war, our definition of being a Christian does not necessarily constitute that you are required to have a personal relationship with God or Jesus ... Being a Christian can mean many things; That you believe in and want to protect Europe's Christian cultural heritage. The European cultural heritage, our norms (moral codes and social structures included), our traditions and our modern political systems are based on Christianity � Protestantism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity and the legacy of the European enlightenment (reason is the primary source and legitimacy for authority). It is not required that you have a personal relationship with God or Jesus in order to fight for our Christian cultural heritage and the European way."
Andrew Sullivan uses the terms Christianism and Christianist to refer to this form of politicized Christianity. It seems to be a useful distinction.
Roger Cohen had an important point to make:
European Christendom in this context is a mirror image of the idealized caliphate of Osama bin Laden. It is a dream-world cause through which to enlist the masses in apocalyptical warfare against an �infidel� enemy supposedly threatening the territory, morals and culture of an imagined community of devout believers. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/26/opinion/26iht-edcohen26.html?_r=2&emc=eta1 |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| stilicho25 wrote: |
| The Christian angle is wierd. I had always though that type of hardcore supremacists were sort of psuedo pagan types. |
On the Stormfront forums there are a mix of both, but Christians seem to outnumber the pagans. |
At the end of the day, there's not much difference, in terms of political psychology, between fantasizing that you're a Nordic god tossing thunder down upon alien Christian churches, and fantasizing that you're a Knight Templar holding back the Asiatic hordes with the True Cross Of Christ on your shoulder.
Both are examples of the highly mythologized, make-believe Boy's Adventure motifs that permeate fascist symblism. Obviously, the two sides would disgagree about church-burning, but they'd probably be right in sync with one another about the Muslim hordes. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| How very American of you. |
As opposed to what? Getting into the fetal position to wait for what's coming? |
Has increased gun ownership in the US made it a safer place?
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Debatably safer than Canada in many regards, yes. Look up carjacking rates, or break&enters, or rapes. All lower in the US than in Canada; debatably because the US allows its responsible citizens the freedom to pack heat. Break&entering is arguably lower in the US since trespassers can legally be shot and killed on site in many states.
The homicide rate in the US is about 2.5x higher than Canada's, however, mostly attributed to crime rates in inner-city poorer, black neighborhoods. |
Stats Canada says different
http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/Statcan/85-002-XIE/0110185-002-XIE.pdf
http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/[email protected]?iid=57
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada#United_States
Or are you saying rates have dramatically changed since then (possible, I suppose). |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| How very American of you. |
As opposed to what? Getting into the fetal position to wait for what's coming? |
Has increased gun ownership in the US made it a safer place? |
Wrong question to ask. The question should be: has increased gun restriction made the US a safer place? The answer is clearly no; and quite the opposite in many cases. The cities with the highest crime are often those with strict gun laws, notably the nation's capital Washington DC (which has one of the worst crime rates, as well as an outright ban). Mexico also has a total gun ban for citizens, and is completely racked by violent crime (one of the most dangerous countries in the world, in fact).
The point is obvious: when you impose a gun ban, only the criminals and police (who are often not a whole lot better than criminals themselves in bigger cities) will have guns. Of course the main reason crime is so abysmal in the US is due, as with Mexico, to the utterly failed War on Drugs (luckily not a problem in most Asian countries, like Korea or Japan). Even our own government (and the CIA which has been caught shipping in the heroin many times) is in on it. It's essentially like living under Prohibition. Bottom line is when mobsters and corrupt police run your society, and demented, Prozac-addled sociopaths go on random shooting sprees every year, it only makes sense for you to be armed to protect yourself.
| bigverne wrote: |
| The man had constructed his own bizarre ideology and had fantasies about being a 'knight' leading a 'crusade'. I know some on the left would like to use him as an example that 'Christian fundamentalists' are 'just as dangerous' as their Muslim counterparts, but the parallels between the two are tenuous at best. |
The Knights Templar have basically nothing to do with Christianity today. They were an esoteric military order based out out of the Levant over a thousand years ago. They were also the international financiers of their day. People who consider themselves associated with the Knights Templar would have more in common with freemasonry (gnosticism) than with mainline Christianity. If they then go on a mass shooting, we can conclude beyond a doubt that they are just plain insane (or possibly a mind-controlled patsy, although the evidence in this case is not yet clear). |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| How very American of you. |
As opposed to what? Getting into the fetal position to wait for what's coming? |
Has increased gun ownership in the US made it a safer place? |
Wrong question to ask. The question should be: has increased gun restriction made the US a safer place? The answer is clearly no; and quite the opposite in many cases. The cities with the highest crime are often those with strict gun laws, notably the nation's capital Washington DC (which has one of the worst crime rates, as well as an outright ban). Mexico also has a total gun ban for citizens, and is completely racked by violent crime (one of the most dangerous countries in the world, in fact).
The point is obvious: when you impose a gun ban, only the criminals and police (who are often not a whole lot better than criminals themselves in bigger cities) will have guns. Of course the main reason crime is so abysmal in the US is due, as with Mexico, to the utterly failed War on Drugs (luckily not a problem in most Asian countries, like Korea or Japan). Even our own government (and the CIA which has been caught shipping in the heroin many times) is in on it. It's essentially like living under Prohibition. Bottom line is when mobsters and corrupt police run your society, and demented, Prozac-addled sociopaths go on random shooting sprees every year, it only makes sense for you to be armed to protect yourself. |
Did you take a look at my statistics for crime in Canada? Canada, like Norway, has gun ownership...but often more centered on hunting and such.
So it seems odd to me that you'd tout the US as an example for crime deference due to gun ownership, yet the US apparently has much higher crime rates. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
Did you take a look at my statistics for crime in Canada? Canada, like Norway, has gun ownership...but often more centered on hunting and such.
So it seems odd to me that you'd tout the US as an example for crime deference due to gun ownership, yet the US apparently has much higher crime rates. |
Um, did you even read my last post? The reason the US has so much crime is due to drug-related violence. Not sure about Canada, but hey, you don't share a border with Mexico (where mass killings are commonplace).
Rather than comparing Canada to the US, try comparing the US to Mexico: the latter has a total gun ban and is one of the most violent, dangerous countries on earth. That is why I conclude that US would be far, far worse off if we followed Mexico's "great" example.
And yeah, I realize that other countries (usually small and/or homogeneous ones) don't have any guns, and practically no violent crime, well lucky them. They don't have to deal with what the US does. |
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travel zen
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Debatably safer than Canada in many regards, yes. Look up carjacking rates, or break&enters, or rapes. All lower in the US than in Canada; debatably because the US allows its responsible citizens the freedom to pack heat. Break&entering is arguably lower in the US since trespassers can legally be shot and killed on site in many states.
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Absolutely nutts! Totally untrue, even if you show 'data and charts'
America with 10 times the population and a history of civil violence could never be topped by tame (if not lame) Canada. |
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