|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
 Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:12 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
[quote="edwardcatflap"]
| Quote: |
I
. ..Back packers interested in Korean culture will usually not know the first thing about lesson planning and will usually be a burden on the Korean teachers. Back packers interested in Korean culture will keep the principal happy by learning Korean and the other Korean teachers happy by praising Korean food, culture etc... but in the class room they often fail in even their basic role - to model native English.
|
What about backpackers who aren't interested in Korean culture? Are they more likely to know about lesson planning and be less of a burden on the Korean teachers? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| No, I was just trying to point out that an interest in Korean culture is not necessary for the important aspects of working as a NET. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Modernist
Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Location: The 90s
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| an interest in Korean culture is not necessary for the important aspects of working as a NET. |
Perhaps, but I've found being somewhat able to fake it does go a long way in dealing with many day-to-day issues. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ippy
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| The only reason why they put the 'qualification' of being interested in Japanese culture on the JET scheme requirements and why they always bang on about it here is they think kids out of university with an interest in Korean/Japanese culture will be less likely to get homesick and do a runner and more likely to learn a bit of the language so their co-teacher won't have to be holding their hand all the time. |
There are numerous reasons of course. This may be one of them, but it isnt the only reason. It could just as likely be that they want people who have a genuine interest about japan because they want people who are interested in learning from japanese culture.
It could also be (as in the fantastic book importing diversity), that the JET programme was a great way for japan to give the US something nice back so they could keep exporting cheap goods to the US.
Of course, japanese people being cheeky decided that the best thing to do was bring over a bunch of young kids fresh out of university (and likely to end up in decent jobs 20 years down the line) who look back at their time in japan with happy memories and so look favourably towards japan and japanese products when theyre in a position of relative power to help the japanese economy. As people would often say on bigdaikon, the point of the jet programme is to LEAVE.
So a genuine interest in japan would of course go a long way to helping to manufacture those rosy tinted spectacles.
Still, i think its somewhere in the middle of all this. They want people with an interest in japan and japanese culture because they want people to enjoy their time in japan and be enriched by the process, if that helps them not feel homesick, or get something out of the experience, then great! Win win! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shifter2009
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Location: wisconsin
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="TheUrbanMyth"]
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
I
. ..Back packers interested in Korean culture will usually not know the first thing about lesson planning and will usually be a burden on the Korean teachers. Back packers interested in Korean culture will keep the principal happy by learning Korean and the other Korean teachers happy by praising Korean food, culture etc... but in the class room they often fail in even their basic role - to model native English.
|
What about backpackers who aren't interested in Korean culture? Are they more likely to know about lesson planning and be less of a burden on the Korean teachers? |
I have found the Korean teachers to be a far bigger burden on me than I am on them when it comes to lesson planning. That is only personal experience though. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
I would add that these "unqualified" backpackers in some ways contribute more to EFL than the "qualified" teachers would like to believe. The latter gets so lost in the rhetoric of their TEFL/TESOL courses that they lose sight of the concept of language and cultural exchange.
On that note, I would point out that in the JET Program, one of the primary qualifications for getting in is an interest in Japanese culture.
I can't tell you how much it helped to express an interest in Korean culture with my students to get them speaking English. And that's something that's never mentioned in teaching courses (not to my knowledge, anyway). |
That's because there's an idea that to learn a language more effectively you should try to learn it through the culture of the language you are learning, not your own. It's the kids you should be trying to get interested in English language culture so they will look at and listen to stuff in their free time. That's why the Swedes, Dutch and Germans speak such good English, they don't try and shut themselves off from foreign culture in the way a lot of Koreans do. Sure the kids will be livelier if you talk about kimchi, Girls generation and Yuna Kim ad nauseum just as they would be if you played Jeopardy or Bomb or whatever their favourite game is at the time. It takes more dedication and hard work to make something less known to them interesting. Sure they should be talking about stuff that's relevant to them but the point of a cultural 'exchange' is that you tell them about your culture and they tell you aboout theirs. What's the point in mugging up all about their culture to tell them stuff they already know? If you come to the lessons to learn, there'll be a genuine information gap which is much healthier situation
Also back packers interested in Korean culture in my experience often use class room time to improve their Korean skills because they don't have the teaching skills to use L2 effectively. There have been posters on here saying that it's more effective to use Korean when giving instructions in the class room because they don't know how to explain properly in English and it's easier the other way. Back packers interested in Korean culture, or not, will usually not know the first thing about lesson planning and will usually be a burden on the Korean teachers. They will be unable to help their co-teachers with simple grammar enquiries. Back packers interested in Korean culture will keep the principal happy by learning Korean and the other Korean teachers happy by praising Korean food, culture etc... but in the class room they often fail in even their basic role - to model native English.
The only reason why they put the 'qualification' of being interested in Japanese culture on the JET scheme requirements and why they always bang on about it here is they think kids out of university with an interest in Korean/Japanese culture will be less likely to get homesick and do a runner and more likely to learn a bit of the language so their co-teacher won't have to be holding their hand all the time. |
I didn't say to teach Korean culture in the class. I said to express an interest in it. I don't teach Korean culture in class.
I'm talking about a cultural exchange. The students (especially children) might ask the question, "Why should we be interested in your language (your culture) when you aren't interested in ours?" I've never actually been asked that, but I have noticed that the more interest I take in the students' language and culture, the more interest they take in learning English.
At the same time, there's this absurdity in what we're trying to do; extracting or isolating language from culture. Teaching a lesson about food, for example. What do we usually do? Show pictures of food. But who wants to look at a picture of food? That's not really experiencing the culture. There's nothing interesting about it. You don't just identify food by visual recognition. You identify it by taste and smell.
I said the same thing in another thread with regard to TV teaching. It's not interesting to see someone on a TV.Not like it is when you're with them in person.
If you think that language immersion, methodology, and academic qualifications are all there is to this job, then you've missed the boat completely. (And not implying that you have, edward. I'm just saying.)
Last edited by isitts on Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Charlie Bourque wrote: |
Why aren't there as many opportunities for qualified teachers that want to make a career out of ESL? |
This has already been answered more than once on this thread.
Because most "qualified" teachers aren't interested in making a career out of ESL. (And it's EFL, by the way. Or were you talking about your home country?)
The qualifications they have generally aren't relavant to adapting to other cultures.
Or perhaps more importantly, there isn't a demand for "qualified" teachers.
And even if there was, there aren't enough teachers to meet that demand (kind of repeating my first point).
I don't get why people think that just because they have qualifications, someone should demand them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| isitts wrote: |
| Charlie Bourque wrote: |
Why aren't there as many opportunities for qualified teachers that want to make a career out of ESL? |
This has already been answered more than once on this thread.
Because most "qualified" teachers aren't interested in making a career out of ESL. (And it's EFL, by the way. Or were you talking about your home country?)
The qualifications they have generally aren't relavant to adapting to other cultures.
Or perhaps more importantly, there isn't a demand for "qualified" teachers.
And even if there was, there aren't enough teachers to meet that demand (kind of repeating my first point).
I don't get why people think that just because they have qualifications, someone should demand them. |
Well said, but do not ignore the other side of that arguement.
There are people who are passionate about teaching, and perhaps even ESL in particular. I am not getting the impression that such people are actually wanted for these positions. IMHE I have learned that one can drive a truck through that space between what people say they want and what they are actually looking for or are willing to work for. Perhaps I am drawing the wrong conclusions from these various posts, but the message seems to be that instructors are being hired to produce an effect and not necessarily a result. As always YMMV.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
Perhaps I am drawing the wrong conclusions from these various posts, but the message seems to be that instructors are being hired to produce an effect and not necessarily a result. As always YMMV.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
Yes, in the case of public schools, NETs are hired to produce an effect, not a result, which is why they're not and never were considered a longterm solution. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| silkhighway wrote: |
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
Perhaps I am drawing the wrong conclusions from these various posts, but the message seems to be that instructors are being hired to produce an effect and not necessarily a result. As always YMMV.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
Yes, in the case of public schools, NETs are hired to produce an effect, not a result, which is why they're not and never were considered a longterm solution. |
Ok, then....at least thats honest and something I can get my head around. But it does beg a question that I have had scratching around in the back of my head ever since I first started contributing here. That question is:
If no actual result was intended or will probably be accomplished why the game?
What I mean is that if all people are looking for is essentially childcare workers, why not simply advertize for "childcare workers"? Why all of this mumbo-jumbo about Master's degrees, experience/no experience, Korean literate/non-Korean literate, teacher's cert/no teacher's cert etc etc etc. In my own case I'm not interested in baby-sitting and it would have saved me about a year of heavy soul-searching with my family and a singuarly obnoxious paper-chase if someone would have been up-front and stated that child-care (albeit by another name) is all these places are seeking. A cute nanny whose backside --- er --- background includes being a native speaker of English would seem to pretty much cover this market, wouldn't you think?
Know what I mean? Whats the deal?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Charlie Bourque
Joined: 27 Jun 2010
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
Teaching in K-12, and teaching ESL are two completely different things. One could only want to teach ESL [or EFL, but now we're just nitpicking] and have zero interest in teaching K-12 back home.
So in short, being a qualified K-12 teacher back home doesn't necessarily mean you will be good at teaching ESL. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Charlie Bourque wrote: |
Teaching in K-12, and teaching ESL are two completely different things. One could only want to teach ESL [or EFL, but now we're just nitpicking] and have zero interest in teaching K-12 back home.
So in short, being a qualified K-12 teacher back home doesn't necessarily mean you will be good at teaching ESL. |
I appreciate the response, CB, but it really does not answer my question.
I have read a number of threads now representing that these ESL positions are pretty much little more than Language-themed business and time-structuring. If this is true in the preponderance of circumstance, why make a great show of dressing it up as though it were something far nobler? Why the facade'? Thoughts?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Why the facade? Who knows?
Perhaps they are saving face and don't want to admit they are hiring daycare workers.
Perhaps they love to degrade westerners and dupe them into thinking they are accepting real teaching positions.
Perhaps they genuinely don't know and think they really need those qualifications.
Perhaps they just want bragging rights, " we got the most over-qualeeefieyed waaayyyy goooooooooooK around!!!!!!!!!!!" So we can charge more. *_^
Perhaps it's some combination of these and other factors that I haven't thought of.
Perhaps the moon really is green cheese and .....
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Charlie Bourque wrote: |
Teaching in K-12, and teaching ESL are two completely different things. One could only want to teach ESL [or EFL, but now we're just nitpicking] and have zero interest in teaching K-12 back home.
So in short, being a qualified K-12 teacher back home doesn't necessarily mean you will be good at teaching ESL. |
Exactly.
In fact, no one has presented any evidence that teachers with "credentials," which means a variety of degrees and certificates for a few hours of class, are any better at teaching and obtaining results in the classroom than teachers without such credentials.
In my experience, as a group, the teachers without credentials are actually better at teaching. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Charlie Bourque
Joined: 27 Jun 2010
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ontheway wrote: |
| Charlie Bourque wrote: |
Teaching in K-12, and teaching ESL are two completely different things. One could only want to teach ESL [or EFL, but now we're just nitpicking] and have zero interest in teaching K-12 back home.
So in short, being a qualified K-12 teacher back home doesn't necessarily mean you will be good at teaching ESL. |
Exactly.
In fact, no one has presented any evidence that teachers with "credentials," which means a variety of degrees and certificates for a few hours of class, are any better at teaching and obtaining results in the classroom than teachers without such credentials.
In my experience, as a group, the teachers without credentials are actually better at teaching. |
It would help if more universities offered a Joint Honors B.A./B.Ed. in Second Language Teaching. I only know of a few credible universities in North America that have this sort of degree. That is the formal training can come to having any sort of official certification besides TEFL and CELTA, which are garage in my opinion.
@Bruce: If you think about it, placing a K-12 teacher in an ESL classroom is like placing an ESL teacher in a K-12 science [bio/chem/phys/etc] classroom -- they are completely different subjects and the methods used to teach one aren't necessarily applicable to the other. The approaches and methods for teaching foreign languages are incredibly complex when compared to other subjects, and are constantly evolving. TESL requires fairly specific training that can usually only be acquire on-the-job, so to speak. But that's just my opinion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
