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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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 Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox, do you think people are born to be child molesters? (Like it's part of their DNA?) Or do you think they become that way as a product of their environment? Or as a combination of the two? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| jrwhite82 wrote: |
| Fox, do you think people are born to be child molesters? (Like it's part of their DNA?) Or do you think they become that way as a product of their environment? Or as a combination of the two? |
Safest bet is that there's generally elements of both, with the degree which either plays a role varying on a case by case basis. |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| jrwhite82 wrote: |
| Fox, do you think people are born to be child molesters? (Like it's part of their DNA?) Or do you think they become that way as a product of their environment? Or as a combination of the two? |
Safest bet is that there's generally elements of both, with the degree which either plays a role varying on a case by case basis. |
Would you think then that the availability of child porn without any consequence for possessing it might cause an increase in the number of pedophiles?
If their environment can help shape who they are and they can view and purchase (I'm still not sure if you said purchasing it should be illegal or not) child porn with impunity, that it might cause more people to become exposed and interested in it? And that cause more people to become pedophiles through environmental exposure. And thus it would also cause higher demand for child porn. Which would make it more lucrative to produce it. And for those that don't produce it for the money, but produce it because they get off on the thrill of sharing it with others, having a larger ( and more profitable, in the case of those who do it for money,) audience might encourage them to make more and hurt more children in the process.
I totally understand your point, that looking at a picture that you had no part in creating is not directly harming the abused. But you have to see there is indirect harm being done by those who purchase or free download these images and videos. Either by supporting the producer monetarily or through encouraging him to produce more. Or even through them then moving from the passive viewing stage to one in which they are now actively involved in creating it or acting on their desires by directly hurting a child. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| jrwhite82 wrote: |
Would you think then that the availability of child porn without any consequence for possessing it might cause an increase in the number of pedophiles? |
Unlikely. Whatever the environmental factors are that induce pedophilia, I don't think happening to see some naked kids are among them. To the extent that environmental factors can induce pedophilia, I think they're more along the lines of being abused as a child. On that note, I did a quick google search and this was one of the results:
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| Results from the Czech Republic showed, as seen everywhere else studied (Canada, Croatia, Denmark, Germany, Finland, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Sweden, USA), that rape and other sex crimes have not increased following the legalization and wide availability of pornography. And most significantly, the incidence of child sex abuse has fallen considerably since 1989, when child pornography became readily accessible � a phenomenon also seen in Denmark and Japan. Their findings are published online today in Springer�s journal Archives of Sexual Behavior. |
If being abused as a child can in turn shape one into an abuser, and legalization of child pornography possession really reduces abuse, then it seems to me that the legalization of child pornography in turn could reduce not only the number of incidents of abuse in the present, but the actual number of people prone to become abusers in the future. |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| jrwhite82 wrote: |
Would you think then that the availability of child porn without any consequence for possessing it might cause an increase in the number of pedophiles? |
Unlikely. Whatever the environmental factors are that induce pedophilia, I don't think happening to see some naked kids are among them. To the extent that environmental factors can induce pedophilia, I think they're more along the lines of being abused as a child. On that note, I did a quick google search and this was one of the results:
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| Results from the Czech Republic showed, as seen everywhere else studied (Canada, Croatia, Denmark, Germany, Finland, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Sweden, USA), that rape and other sex crimes have not increased following the legalization and wide availability of pornography. And most significantly, the incidence of child sex abuse has fallen considerably since 1989, when child pornography became readily accessible � a phenomenon also seen in Denmark and Japan. Their findings are published online today in Springer�s journal Archives of Sexual Behavior. |
If being abused as a child can in turn shape one into an abuser, and legalization of child pornography possession really reduces abuse, then it seems to me that the legalization of child pornography in turn could reduce not only the number of incidents of abuse in the present, but the actual number of people prone to become abusers in the future. |
Interesting study which addresses only part of my post.
What about the viewers that are encouraging the producers by paying for the content or are supporting them because the producer gets his thrills by sharing with others? Do you think they are causing harm to the kids in these videos (and putting others at risk) by viewing either of these kinds of producer's materials? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| jrwhite82 wrote: |
What about the viewers that are encouraging the producers by paying for the content or are supporting them because the producer gets his thrills by sharing with others? |
I think anyone actively paying for children to be abused is the same as anyone actively paying for any other crime. What I'm suggesting is merely that possession in-and-of itself should not be criminal, not that you should be able to phone up your pedo-buddy and promise him $80 dollars if he rapes a kid and sends you a tape of it. That's a nuanced distinction I admitted to earlier in the conversation. |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| jrwhite82 wrote: |
What about the viewers that are encouraging the producers by paying for the content or are supporting them because the producer gets his thrills by sharing with others? |
I think anyone actively paying for children to be abused is the same as anyone actively paying for any other crime. What I'm suggesting is merely that possession in-and-of itself should not be criminal, not that you should be able to phone up your pedo-buddy and promise him $80 dollars if he rapes a kid and sends you a tape of it. That's a nuanced distinction I admitted to earlier in the conversation. |
So you're saying that to be punished it has to be proven that you purchased it or conspired in a way to help the produce make the film? What about the guy who gets off on sharing it and someone joins his Kiddie Porn Flickr Feed? If you are caught downloading it, you are encouraging him to share it and produce it. Shouldn't that be illegal? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| jrwhite82 wrote: |
So you're saying that to be punished it has to be proven that you purchased it or conspired in a way to help the produce make the film? |
Yes. Justice demands it.
| jrwhite82 wrote: |
| What about the guy who gets off on sharing it and someone joins his Kiddie Porn Flickr Feed? If you are caught downloading it, you are encouraging him to share it and produce it. Shouldn't that be illegal? |
Sharing and producing are different. Producing new porn mandates new instances of child abuse. Freely sharing currently existing porn, if the above study is to be believed, actually reduces new instances of child abuse. No, the latter shouldn't be illegalized, at least if we care about actual results. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
So, if we regard viewing a child being abused as not being punishable if not reported ... |
Well since aq8kynus' case has fallen apart, I'll turn back to this. Since you keep going on about the importance of it being reported and using that as your basis for its criminalization, I assume you would support a registry which would allow anyone who downloaded child pornography to report it, inform the police where and how they acquired it, and then enjoy it as they pleased? After all, they've reported it at that point. |
If a person gets child pornography, lets just say randomly, then reports it to the police but also gets off on it privately, I personally don't see that as a crime. I may be disgusted by their actions but I don't see that as a crime. Its not what I'm asking.
I am asking if NOT reporting it is a crime. Do you support that its not a crime to not report that they are aware of a video, picture or some other evidence that a child is being raped?
I used the present laws of accessory to murder before and after the fact to support that notion.
I also asked if a person who actively pursues videos of children being sexually abused, even in cases where the person who produced it was convicted, can't be used as a premise for a search warrant for that person's computer and home. Just asking if you would be against that.
I understand what you're saying about viewing it shouldn't be a crime. I have some libertarian tendencies and I understand that view. I am asking if viewing it and NOT reporting should not be a crime as well (assuming the person has not been caught). |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
I am asking if NOT reporting it is a crime. Do you support that its not a crime to not report that they are aware of a video, picture or some other evidence that a child is being raped? |
I would be comfortable with it being mandated by law to report child pornography so long as possession itself was not criminal, meaning the individuals who came forward regularly to report what they found would not be incriminating themselves by doing so.
| sirius black wrote: |
| I also asked if a person who actively pursues videos of children being sexually abused, even in cases where the person who produced it was convicted, can't be used as a premise for a search warrant for that person's computer and home. Just asking if you would be against that. |
If the police are aware that a person actively pursues such things because the individual in question came in with some porn to report it to them, then no, that shouldn't justify a search warrant. If on the other hand someone is discovered to have it on their computer without having reported it, I'm comfortable with a search warrant being issued in order to verify that none of it was either purchased or produced first hand. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Thanks. Then yor original position is either modified or clarified depending on how you want to view it.
Originally, you said viewing it shouldn't be a crime. Without putting words in your mouth, its vagueness suggested that viewing it and not reporting shouldn't be a crime. Its not unfair to read that into your original assertion. There is enough wiggle-room in your original post to suggest you didn't mean not reporting it shouldn't be a crime.
As to the search warrant issue. It could be argued that actively pursuing videos of children being molested is enough to justify a search warrant or investigate the person to see if they are also molesters. I am one that believes the government does overstep its boundries with respect to right to privacy oftentimes nowadays. However, presently, the government does justify further investigatation if, for example, a person is actively seeking jihadist sites, downloading rhetoric of those calling for America's overthrow or advocating terroist strikes. IF such persons are deemed by you as people who warrant further investigation by the FBI and other law enforcement, then a case can be made that actively seeking kiddie porn warrants a similar investigation. If you believe it does not then, so be it. A case can be made either way I suppose. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
Thanks. Then yor original position is either modified or clarified depending on how you want to view it.
Originally, you said viewing it shouldn't be a crime. Without putting words in your mouth, its vagueness suggested that viewing it and not reporting shouldn't be a crime. Its not unfair to read that into your original assertion. |
It's not unfair. In my defense, some time back we had a discussion on CE about this issue, and my proposed solution involved more or less what I've described here (including the requirement for child pornography possessors to act as police informants), but obviously it's unreasonable to expect everyone (or even anyone) participating in this discussion to have read that post from however long ago.
| sirius black wrote: |
| As to the search warrant issue. It could be argued that actively pursuing videos of children being molested is enough to justify a search warrant or investigate the person to see if they are also molesters. I am one that believes the government does overstep its boundries with respect to right to privacy oftentimes nowadays. However, presently, the government does justify further investigatation if, for example, a person is actively seeking jihadist sites, downloading rhetoric of those calling for America's overthrow or advocating terroist strikes. IF such persons are deemed by you as people who warrant further investigation by the FBI and other law enforcement, then a case can be made that actively seeking kiddie porn warrants a similar investigation. If you believe it does not then, so be it. A case can be made either way I suppose. |
I'd rather the government stopped behaving in the fashion described in the bolded text entirely. Terrorism is obviously terrible, but honestly, the War on Terror -- as with every witch hunt -- has probably done our country more actual harm. |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| jrwhite82 wrote: |
So you're saying that to be punished it has to be proven that you purchased it or conspired in a way to help the produce make the film? |
Yes. Justice demands it.
| jrwhite82 wrote: |
| What about the guy who gets off on sharing it and someone joins his Kiddie Porn Flickr Feed? If you are caught downloading it, you are encouraging him to share it and produce it. Shouldn't that be illegal? |
Sharing and producing are different. Producing new porn mandates new instances of child abuse. Freely sharing currently existing porn, if the above study is to be believed, actually reduces new instances of child abuse. No, the latter shouldn't be illegalized, at least if we care about actual results. |
I hear what you're saying. But I think it is wrong and harmful to the victim (and their family) to know people are out there sharing pictures and pleasuring themselves to pictures of their rape/molestation. And those people should be punished. I respect your opinion on the matter but I disagree with it. |
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Mia Guenne
Joined: 06 Oct 2011
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