|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
|
 Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Carbon wrote: |
| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
| ...they were tossing resumes from applicants who were married. |
You seem to tacitly support this practice. Well, it certainly makes you either quite happy, or quite upset; either way, you are passionate about this issue. I suspect the former and, well, what can you say to that? You seem to be either a Korean* or an insecure foreigner.
* No racial slur intended. Koreans routinely engage in all manner of crooked hiring practices. No secret there. Throwing an application in the trash based on a visa status (a factor that would have absolutely no bearing on the job and actually would save them money and time) is ludicrous. |
No, just a crap detector.
When I read a post that runs contrary to my experience, I tell it like it is. Then, when that poster provides a quote from a thesis supporting their opinion, yet lacking references to back up statements like:
| Quote: |
| "One other major limitation to this project derives from the S. Korean work visa policy. In its attempt to assist English education, the S. Korean government provides more subsidies to all higher learning institutes that employ native foreign speakers employed under the �F� series visa status and less if the native speaker is an E1 or E2 visa holder." |
.... that's when I call foul. Is it true? If so, where is the reference? I might even write an article about it for The Korea Herald if the author can provide me with where he got this information so I can fact-check it.
Again, I can buy the argument that schools might want to hire F-visas because of their ties to Korea. But not all, or even most schools.
As to this being personal, I'm just responding to a post on a message board. I am not the one who devoted a chunk of my thesis to the idea, nor am I the one who searched for it and quoted it.
Now, who is taking this personally? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Nester Noodlemon
Joined: 16 Jan 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Carbon wrote: |
| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
| 1. My earlier post was based on fact. Fact that I had experienced |
This is called "hearsay", in the world.
| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
| I've been teaching in Korea for nearly a decade, and although I could buy the argument that some schools might prefer to hire F-Visa teachers, I can categorically state that this is NOT the norm for all, or even MOST universities (at least the ones that I know of). |
So your sample is what...4 maybe 5 universities? Well, my sample - the one I never argued as fact - is at least 18 schools. The problem is you don't believe me and to that, who cares? It is a fact - by your own words - that I know more about more schools' hiring practices than you, but you insist that you are right? So much for your factual investing.
| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
2. My post was not a thesis. It was a casual post on a message board. The article quoted by the gentleman who attended the University of South Queensland WAS a thesis, and SHOULD have facts backed-up with references. The unfortunate truth is that the professor/advisor working with this student appears to have missed it.
Simply because this Masters student appears to have written an opinion, put it in the middle of his 100+ page thesis, and published it on an ONLINE site does not make what he wrote any more true than my post here on Dave's.
Until we learn exactly what benefits he claims the government is giving schools for hiring F-2's, his argument is nothing more than a fart in the wind. I'd really like to know, because a "professor" or "lecturer" publishing this kind of thing without facts or can end up getting someone fired, sued, etc. |
Holy deflections, strawman! |
Hi Carbon
I have been in Korea around the same amount of time as Swampbox  10mm. Based on my own experience, and having acquaintances who work in universities, I have to differ with the opinion of Swampbox. An F-Visa holder will be considered for the job and hired for the job the majority of the time. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Carbon wrote: |
| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
| 1. My earlier post was based on fact. Fact that I had experienced |
This is called "hearsay", in the world.
| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
| I've been teaching in Korea for nearly a decade, and although I could buy the argument that some schools might prefer to hire F-Visa teachers, I can categorically state that this is NOT the norm for all, or even MOST universities (at least the ones that I know of). |
So your sample is what...4 maybe 5 universities? Well, my sample - the one I never argued as fact - is at least 18 schools. The problem is you don't believe me and to that, who cares? It is a fact - by your own words - that I know more about more schools' hiring practices than you, but you insist that you are right? So much for your factual investing.
| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
2. My post was not a thesis. It was a casual post on a message board. The article quoted by the gentleman who attended the University of South Queensland WAS a thesis, and SHOULD have facts backed-up with references. The unfortunate truth is that the professor/advisor working with this student appears to have missed it.
Simply because this Masters student appears to have written an opinion, put it in the middle of his 100+ page thesis, and published it on an ONLINE site does not make what he wrote any more true than my post here on Dave's.
Until we learn exactly what benefits he claims the government is giving schools for hiring F-2's, his argument is nothing more than a fart in the wind. I'd really like to know, because a "professor" or "lecturer" publishing this kind of thing without facts or can end up getting someone fired, sued, etc. |
Holy deflections, strawman! |
1. You seem to have ignored where I invited you to my university to meet me and see the list of who is employed here. Heresay? No.
2. You know of 18 universities, eh? So you wrote this thesis? I haven't picked through 100+ pages of it to find it, but did you bother to include this information as part of your study? If not, then why not?
If you didn't write that thesis, would you be willing to provide me with the names of the 18 universities you are basing your posts on? I'd like to know so that I can write an article for the Korea Herald about this trend. May I quote you, as well? Oh, but if you are also saying that what you are writing is not something that is factual, then why are you bothering to make it up???
3. You need to brush-up on your understanding of a strawman fallacy. Here's a link that can help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
What I posted about both the thesis and the author is FACT which can be verified by anyone who reads the title page of the thesis, as well as quoted contents from the thesis. Just because my post calls-out the truth about where this article comes from, as well as notes that the same article appears to lack verifiable references or facts, does not constitute a strawman argument (or a deflection).
4. My main argument here is that what everyone is posting here is OPINION. It is opinion based on experience differing from mine. So what?
When a thesis was quoted as fact, while lacking references, stating more of the same opinions, and claiming that the GOVERNMENT provides some kind of implied monetary benefit to schools who hired F-Visas (again, with no references) -- that is when I smelled even more crap. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Carbon
Joined: 28 Jan 2011
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
1. You seem to have ignored where I invited you to my university to meet me and see the list of who is employed here. Heresay? No. |
Ignored? No, I realize that there are some who have no preference, but it seems that at your school, they actively reject F visas. Do I believe you? Sure, why not? Sounds like a bad gig though. I mean, if they will do that - bin applications based on visa status - then what else will they do? Anyway.
Please PM me the name of your university and I shall take you up on that meeting.
| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
| 2. You know of 18 universities, eh? |
I have been here a long time. Much longer than you, and yes, I have many professional acquaintances. Will I write them all here? What would that prove? You would rightly say I am simply writing names of universities and ask for individual teacher names. I couldn't do that, and thus It wouldn't end with you. So, I decline.
| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
So you wrote this thesis? I haven't picked through 100+ pages of it to find it, but did you bother to include this information as part of your study? If not, then why not?
If you didn't write that thesis, would you be willing to provide me with the names of the18 universities you are basing your posts on? I'd like to know so that I can write an article for the Korea Herald about this trend. May I quote you, as well? Oh, but if you are also saying that what you are writing is not something that is factual, then why are you bothering to make it up???
3. You need to brush-up on your understanding of a strawman fallacy. Here's a link that can help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
What I posted about both the thesis and the author is FACT which can be verified by anyone who reads the title page of the thesis, as well as your quoted contents. Just because my post calls-out the truth about where this article comes from, as well as notes that the same article appears to lack verifiable references or facts, does not constitute a strawman argument (or a deflection). |
| unequivalentopedia wrote: |
| To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet [sic]unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position. |
Now, let's keep these two issues separate, can we?
I didn't quote the article. You write that letter and you can use many schools from the "top 20" and be mostly right. Go nuts and have fun. Did I say 18? I think the true number would be about 15.
Look at pages 85 to 94 of the linked article if you want references. You didn't even look at the article, did you? The poster just put up a snippet and you go haywire. It is not my article and it is childish of you to first assume that and second, launch an attack based on that false assumption.
I am not posting opinion, that is the difference. I am posting my personal experience and how it that opinion? Sure, my understanding of perhaps 15 universities' hiring systems is no large sample, but it is more than yours. If you know of 4 schools that burn F visa applications and I know of 15 that don't (quite the opposite), where does that leave us? Well, if both of us are telling the truth, it leaves you wrong in this thread.
I await my invitation.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
