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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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 Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| So, what's the solution to all this? |
not that i'm saying it's the proper answer or solution, but you could always take an approach for removal of responsible body parts, similar to how some islamic countries will remove a hand if someone steals. i think that would make people think twice, i know i definitely would.
someone fires a gun illegally? chop off the ol' hand. don't even worry about wasting time, money and space in jail.
someone rapes someone? chop off the ol' family jewels. don't even worry about wasting time, money and space in jail.
of course it would never happen in any first world country as it falls under cruel and unusual punishment, but it'd definitely be interesting to see what the effects of such a policy would be in urban america. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| So, what's the solution to all this? |
not that i'm saying it's the proper answer or solution, but you could always take an approach for removal of responsible body parts, similar to how some islamic countries will remove a hand if someone steals. i think that would make people think twice, i know i definitely would.
someone fires a gun illegally? chop off the ol' hand. don't even worry about wasting time, money and space in jail.
someone rapes someone? chop off the ol' family jewels. don't even worry about wasting time, money and space in jail.
of course it would never happen in any first world country as it falls under cruel and unusual punishment, but it'd definitely be interesting to see what the effects of such a policy would be in urban america. |
I agree that prison is one of the most pointless endeavors in Criminal Justice.
Jail is fine. 1-30 days in jail is not a major drag on the government and doesn't result in people getting better at crime or the people there getting raped and infected with HIV. It's like a time out.
Life imprisonment is pointless. Might as well shoot em and be done with it.
Long term imprisonment is pointless barring the need for long, drawn out trials or the person possessing information.
Anything that has a sentence of longer than 30 days and under life/death can be solved in a much more efficient manner.
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I would get very (verbally) hostile. I wouldn't resort to violence or shoot anybody though... Not unless they were physically at my house with an imminent threat that they would kidnap my child.
I will say that basically that's all the CPS does in many cases: kidnaps children from their parents. |
The only thing that would have me object to violence in this case is that it is absolutely ineffective and escalated the situation terribly, that it is targeted against people just doing their jobs with the best intentions, and obviously, because there are times where a parent IS abusive/nuts.
Still, I can't find myself condemning a parent using violence to prevent the forced removal and abduction of their child.
I mean, that's really one of the core "righteous causes" for lethal force. Seriously, what do people expect when they threaten/go to take someones kids away and someone decides to open fire?
Heck for your kids sake, I'd at least try to deck the guy or something, make sure that the last memory my kids would have of me getting tackled by the cops before they were thrown in the Police SUV and me doing everything in my physical power to prevent the uniforms from hauling them off to the orphanage. Show that daddy actually gave a hoot enough to fight for them.
I mean...would you rather see your parents shrug and say that everything will be alright and its for the best? Heck, might as well be waving you goodbye and popping champagne as soon as you're out of sight. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
The only thing that would have me object to violence in this case is that it is absolutely ineffective and escalated the situation terribly, that it is targeted against people just doing their jobs with the best intentions, and obviously, because there are times where a parent IS abusive/nuts.
Still, I can't find myself condemning a parent using violence to prevent the forced removal and abduction of their child. |
I would use violence if it were in self defense. I would not resort to it just to "make a point", however... Words are just words, unless the person's threat carried any sign of imminent action (ie. someone at my doorstep telling me they're literally there to take my child away from me), I might get angry and let the person know how I felt, but would not otherwise use any physical force. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| So, what's the solution to all this? |
not that i'm saying it's the proper answer or solution, but you could always take an approach for removal of responsible body parts, similar to how some islamic countries will remove a hand if someone steals. i think that would make people think twice, i know i definitely would.
someone fires a gun illegally? chop off the ol' hand. don't even worry about wasting time, money and space in jail.
someone rapes someone? chop off the ol' family jewels. don't even worry about wasting time, money and space in jail.
of course it would never happen in any first world country as it falls under cruel and unusual punishment, but it'd definitely be interesting to see what the effects of such a policy would be in urban america. |
What about America in general? In one recent year 194k rapes occurred in America. 'Only' 38k of them were black perpetrators. America itself is violence. A study was done that showed that if you removed all black crime, America would still have the highest crime rate in the western world.
Culturally, collectively, we commit a lot of violent crime. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Could you link those studies? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Why is it when a black person commits a crime people start talking about culture, but when a white person commits a crime it's all about that one person. This isn't a normal thing in any community really, in this case it's an isolated incident. Don't worry Fox, I doubt that when you go back to America some black lady will call her homeboys to shoot up your bus.
In a seperate comment, what kind of self righteous person threatens to call child services on someone? I mean if someone is stright up beating their kid in an excessive way wouldn't it be better to call the cops and let them deal with it, and not announce your intentions. I mean seriously what kind of good for anybody, especially the child, it just making a threat to call child services. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Why is it when a black person commits a crime people start talking about culture, but when a white person commits a crime it's all about that one person. |
If you can show me where I've made that case, by all means, please do so. Because I really don't think I could be more clear and consistent in my attributation of large-scale social problems to cultural causes.
| Leon wrote: |
| This isn't a normal thing in any community really, in this case it's an isolated incident. |
One need only look at crime statistics to see that no, when outrageous violence occurs in the black community, it is not simply an "isolated incident." You can be willfully ignorant of that fact if you like. You can ignore data if you like. You can make up just so stories to explain statistics away if you like. In doing so you'll be doing a disservice to your fellow man by perpetuating lies and ignorance, but I've all ready come to accept that a certain class of person has no problem perpetuating lies and ignorance so long as doing so allows them to reinforce their ideology and, in doing so, derive comfort.
| Leon wrote: |
| Don't worry Fox, I doubt that when you go back to America some black lady will call her homeboys to shoot up your bus. |
Families in my home town -- including my own -- have already been affected by violence driven by urban black culture. So have many other families, be they white, black, hispanic, or otherwise, and it's equally tragic each time it happens, regardless of the demographics (which is why it upsets me that a number of people in this thread have pointed out that black violence is most often directed against other blacks, as if that somehow makes it more acceptable). Don't let that stop you from spouting your bullshit, though. So long as it doesn't affect you, you can rationalize such occurrences away as "isolated incidents" rather than as obvious parts of a systemic problem.
| Leon wrote: |
| In a seperate comment, what kind of self righteous person threatens to call child services on someone? |
And here we have it. Leon sees the story in the original post, and his complaint is not that someone sprayed bullets into a bus full of innocent people in response to a triviality, but that someone threatened to call child services. Defending the sacred cow is all that matters, and black poverty culture is about as sacred as cows get to a fellow like Leon. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Why is it when a black person commits a crime people start talking about culture, but when a white person commits a crime it's all about that one person. |
If you can show me where I've made that case, by all means, please do so. Because I really don't think I could be more clear and consistent in my attributation of large-scale social problems to cultural causes. |
Wasn't only talking about you, several comments were made to this nature. You also have had several other threads about thoose crazy urban blacks.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| This isn't a normal thing in any community really, in this case it's an isolated incident. |
One need only look at crime statistics to see that no, when outrageous violence occurs in the black community, it is not simply an "isolated incident." You can be willfully ignorant of that fact if you like. You can ignore data if you like. You can make up just so stories to explain statistics away if you like. In doing so you'll be doing a disservice to your fellow man by perpetuating lies and ignorance, but I've all ready come to accept that a certain class of person has no problem perpetuating lies and ignorance so long as doing so allows them to reinforce their ideology and, in doing so, derive comfort. |
Shooting up a bus is an isolated incident. Outrageous violence occurs in every community. When a white boy shoots up a school I don't think it's because of surburban white culture. When a member of the Mexican cartel shoots a rival, I don't think it's Mexican culture. I mean if you want to talk about gang culture or crack culture or whatever then I'm with you. Urban black culture is using far too wide a brush.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| ] Don't worry Fox, I doubt that when you go back to America some black lady will call her homeboys to shoot up your bus. |
Families in my home town -- including my own -- have already been affected by violence driven by urban black culture. So have many other families, be they white, black, hispanic, or otherwise, and it's equally tragic each time it happens, regardless of the demographics (which is why it upsets me that a number of people in this thread have pointed out that black violence is most often directed against other blacks, as if that somehow makes it more acceptable). Don't let that stop you from spouting your bullshit, though. So long as it doesn't affect you, you can rationalize such occurrences away as "isolated incidents" rather than as obvious parts of a systemic problem. |
I've been robbed twice in my life. As far as I know both times it was by white people. (wasn't there when it happened but I'm 90% sure that I know who did it in both cases. It really sucked having junkies for neighbours in college.) I'm not concerned about rural white culture. The thing is that it is a problem of drug culture, not of race. In the black ghettos its crack, in the white ones (trailer parks) its Meth. Meth is new relative to crack, but as it takes off expect to see more violence, and more white violence. I've lived in Urban areas and rural areas and have had more problems with poor rural whites than with poor urban blacks. Again if you want to talk about gang culture or drug culture I'm with you, but you're using too big of a catch all when you say urban black culture.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| In a seperate comment, what kind of self righteous person threatens to call child services on someone? |
And here we have it. Leon sees the story in the original post, and his complaint is not that someone sprayed bullets into a bus full of innocent people in response to a triviality, but that someone threatened to call child services. Defending the sacred cow is all that matters, and black poverty culture is about as sacred as cows get to a fellow like Leon. |
This got a laugh from me. Obviously shooting up a bus is bad, it's obvious. I don't go around saying obvious things all the time, shooting up buses is a bad thing to do, I condem it, etc. etc. It's honestly not that interesting to talk about. There is no naunce to it, where as talking about the child services bit has more interesting potential. I mean what more can we say about the original incident,
person a: That's bad
person b: well, yeah they shouldn't have done that
person c: I agree
As far as sacered cows, not really. There is a lot wrong with black poverty culture. There is a lot wrong with white poverty culture, and hispanic poverty culture, etc. Poverty culture is an obvious problem. To see someone take aim at the same race repeatadly, well it's silly. I mean I could post a story about a white person kidnapping someone or a meth lab blowing up and contaminating a neighborhood, I mean what's with these white people. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
| Could you link those studies? |
I posted in anohter thread you were part of a few months ago.
Lawrence Friedman, a Stanford University law professor looked at Crime and Punishment In American History. http://news.stanford.edu/pr/94/940101Arc4530.html
"But I'd like to remind people that if you factored out all black arrests and the black imprisonment rate - let's just say we are going to ignore these and look at the statistics for the white population - arrests and imprisonment are still vastly higher than in England or Japan. So whatever the racial issues involved, it's clear that there's a more general social problem."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics
There were 194,270 white and 17,920 black victims of rape or sexual assault reported in 2006. Out of the 194,270 cases involving white victims, 50.6% had white offenders and 16.7% had black offenders, while the 36,620 black victims had a figure of 43% black offenders, the remaining being of other or unreported race, with a negligible number of white offenders.[17] Some types of rape are excluded from official reports altogether; the FBI's definition for example excludes all rapes except forcible rapes of females, a significant number of rapes go unreported even when they are included as reportable rapes, and a significant number of rapes reported to the police do not advance to prosecution. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Leon does make a valid point and a point I alluded to in a previous post. This event, as tragic as it is, is atypical, even for a high crime black neighborhood which I said earlier. Its why this made the news. A black guy kills anohter black guy, which happens quite often in inner city neighborhoods may make it to the local news...maybe on a slow news day. Often times it doesn't.
Also, as I've stated, 99% of us will never be a victim or party to black inner city violence because frankly, we don't live or work there. In some cities and areas there is 'spillage'.
I agree with Fox that the high crime in low income, urban black neighborhoods needs addressing.
I once heard (and I would love to see the stats and I may do some googling to find out) that many of these neighborhoods or sections of a much lower crime rate and were working class and even middle class at times. This happened in north Philadelphia. Its the area of Philadelphia that Bill Cosby came from and where his famous cartoon show 'Fat Albert and the Cosby kids' was based on. Poor but working class in his day. Something changed. It all seemed to have changed in various cities either in the '70s or '80s to coincide with the crack epidemic.
Harlem had a very middle clas area at one point. There is an area that is regentrified called 'Striver's Row' that had NY's black lawyers, dentists and doctors and teachers. I recall when Bill Clinton moved his office to Harlem there was an accompanying piece about the area.
So, black inner city high crime rate seems to be a modern feature, at least in the level it is today. It wasn't always cutlural.
Also, one of if not the biggest increases into middle class were made by blacks in the '80s and '90s.
It just seems to me that education and opportunity is the way to go to end it. There were some good solutions offered in this thread so far. The lock them and throw away the key approach does not seem to work. There was a sharp increase in black (as well as latino) incarceration since the '70s and the problems seem to only get worse so that can't be a solution. Incarcerated peoples of all races, come out better criminals as prison is where they learn how to be a better criminal. They can't get any decent job because they have a police record. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Why is it when a black person commits a crime people start talking about culture, but when a white person commits a crime it's all about that one person. |
If you can show me where I've made that case, by all means, please do so. Because I really don't think I could be more clear and consistent in my attributation of large-scale social problems to cultural causes. |
Wasn't only talking about you, several comments were made to this nature. You also have had several other threads about thoose crazy urban blacks. |
You mentioned me by name in your initial response, and now when given a chance to recant (given you clearly can't post an example of me doing what you say), you instead attempt to defend your assertion in a passive-aggression fashion by irrelevantly pointing out that I've posted on this topic before.
| Leon wrote: |
| Shooting up a bus is an isolated incident. |
Being as specific as you are being here leads to a warped interpretation. Sure, this specific incident, down to its details, may not happen with great frequency, but it is a manifestation of something that does happen all too frequently. The fact that one manifestation occurs on a public bus, another in a pizza restaurant, another at a bar, and so on doesn't mean they don't share a common essence. By insisting on such specificness, you're essentially throwing the rhetorical equivalent of a smoke bomb, casting a haze over the entire issue.
| Leon wrote: |
| Outrageous violence occurs in every community. |
Yes, it does, and in communities with certain demographics, it happens far more often. The fact that your ideology forces you to either ignore this or invent soothing just so stories to explain it away is precisely what reveals its hollow core. Statistical frequency is important in determining how much of a problem really exists.
| Leon wrote: |
| When a white boy shoots up a school I don't think it's because of surburban white culture. |
If you really believe white suburban culture has had a 0% impact on such events, then you are once again being willfully ignorant. If, on the other hand, you don't believe that, then the above quote is not a true depiction of your stance on this matter.
| Leon wrote: |
| When a member of the Mexican cartel shoots a rival, I don't think it's Mexican culture. |
This example is even worse. While there's no doubt that economic and international circumstances play a role with regards to Mexico's drug violence, it is first and foremost caused by Mexican culture. A nation doesn't become as corrupt and dysfunctional as Mexico "just because."
| Leon wrote: |
| I mean if you want to talk about gang culture or crack culture or whatever then I'm with you. Urban black culture is using far too wide a brush. |
Yes, gang culture and drug culture are both real problems, and they stand out prominently. But you refuse to critically consider the source they draw from, or why certain wider cultures invariably envelope them. Those wider cultures continually recirculate a set of values which not only reinforce their poverty, but also cause them to play perfect host to their more extreme sub-cultures. Urban black culture will inevitably give rise to gang culture so long as it remains in the state its in.
| Fox wrote: |
I've been robbed twice in my life. |
You misunderstand me. My comment was not meant to be an invitation for "let's share our anecdotes" hour. My comment was meant to show you that your sarcastic stab about me not having to worry about 'some black lady calling her homeboys to shoot up my bus,' was misplaced, both because this culture is something my family has all ready been affected by, and because my concern isn't limited to the immediate well being of myself and my family. Even if it never affects me again, it will still be a problem. Even if it only affected other black people ever, it would still be a problem.
| Fox wrote: |
As far as sacered cows, not really. There is a lot wrong with black poverty culture. There is a lot wrong with white poverty culture, and hispanic poverty culture, etc. |
What is wrong with it, such that it's problematic, but has absolutely nothing to do with the kind of events we see here? Be specific.
| Leon wrote: |
| I mean I could post a story about a white person kidnapping someone or a meth lab blowing up and contaminating a neighborhood, I mean what's with these white people. |
Alternatively, could you post a story about some southern white youths beating and killing a totally innocent black man and point out the dysfunction that still lingers in southern white culture. And you'd be completely right. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting link Sirius. Taking some time to digest it. One argument I have heard is that when people of Latin descent are taken from the "white" cohort, our crime rate is about the same as a northern European country.
On an interesting aside, how do the riots in England bear on this topic? Do they have an ethnic component? |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Now not excusing opening fire on a crowded bus but...
1)The parent had every right to spank her child. That's her right, her business. A spanking is not child abuse, even though your opinion may be different.
2)Threatening to call CPS on a parent tends not to produce rational responses. Your basically saying "Your child should be taken away from you forever"
Typically such threats have led to lethal force use in the past. There IS a reason for this.
I mean basically you're saying someone should kidnap her kid from her. Kidnapping is a crime that you are justified in killing the assailant.
If someone EVER, EVER threatened to take my children away from them I would not take that lightly and while violence would not be my first choice, I wouldn't hesitate to use it if that's what was required.
Now should the gunmen be charged with attempted murder? Absolutely. Probably the mother to, though she would have a compelling case for temporary insanity. Most people understand that mother's don't react well to threats of child removal.
As for "culture", remember the rich kill just as many as the poor. To quote Chris Rock-
White Man makes guns. No problem.
Black Rapper says guns. Congressional hearing. |
So, saying you're going to call the cops or CPS is now grounds for someone to kill you... because they might take your children away?
Quite the stretch. |
You're a parent, how would you or your wife react to a complete stranger calling you abusive and threatening to take your kids away via CPS?
Maybe calmly at first...of course if it looked like it might actually happen you might flip out...
I can't imagine a parent in the world who wouldn't get seriously hostile to a complete stranger threatening to have their kids taken away by calling the authorities. |
I'd most likely, in this order... Give a perplexed look, chuckle a bit, tell them to do what they like, go about my merry way.
Shooting them for voicing their opinion or for calling the authorities... Nope, can't say that would ever enter my mind.
Killing someone who is actually laying hands on my child, THAT I understand. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Why is it when a black person commits a crime people start talking about culture, but when a white person commits a crime it's all about that one person. |
If you can show me where I've made that case, by all means, please do so. Because I really don't think I could be more clear and consistent in my attributation of large-scale social problems to cultural causes. |
Wasn't only talking about you, several comments were made to this nature. You also have had several other threads about thoose crazy urban blacks. |
You mentioned me by name in your initial response, and now when given a chance to recant (given you clearly can't post an example of me doing what you say), you instead attempt to defend your assertion in a passive-aggression fashion by irrelevantly pointing out that I've posted on this topic before. |
Oh, I didn't realize that you thought that the first part of my post was directed at you. It wasn't directed solely at you. I mentioned you by name because to me it was a funny image of a middle aged white man being scared of those dang urban blacks. So maybe you misunderstood my intention, but the only part that was directed solely at you was the sentence that had your name in it. Hope that clears up any illusions of passive aggressiveness for you.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Shooting up a bus is an isolated incident. |
Being as specific as you are being here leads to a warped interpretation. Sure, this specific incident, down to its details, may not happen with great frequency, but it is a manifestation of something that does happen all too frequently. The fact that one manifestation occurs on a public bus, another in a pizza restaurant, another at a bar, and so on doesn't mean they don't share a common essence. By insisting on such specificness, you're essentially throwing the rhetorical equivalent of a smoke bomb, casting a haze over the entire issue. |
If I meant that the bus part was the uncommon part than yes, that would be disingenuous. There is a lot of crime in the urban black neighborhoods, but the randomness of this attack is what was unusual. Normal when there is violence it's over drug feuds, robbery, or if a gang member disrespects another one. My point being that indiscriminate violence of this kind is still relatively rare. It's too high obviously, and there is always the case of stray bullets hitting innocents, but wanton indiscriminate violence is rare.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Outrageous violence occurs in every community. |
Yes, it does, and in communities with certain demographics, it happens far more often. The fact that your ideology forces you to either ignore this or invent soothing just so stories to explain it away is precisely what reveals its hollow core. Statistical frequency is important in determining how much of a problem really exists. |
Poor areas where there are lots of drugs, and a drug war going on. That's not a cultural thing. More white people do coke, it's a more upscale drug. More black people smoke crack, it's cheaper. The sentencing laws are different, therefore there is more incentive for police to patrol poor black areas. This increases the risk of the drug trade, increasing profitability and competition, which means violence. Is there some cultural aspect to it, possibly, is that the primary driving force, not really. When you have a disadvantaged population with less economic opportunities, it makes economic sense to comit crime when that is more profitable than the other choices available to you. Where I went to college there was a huge meth problem. The violent crime rate was much higher than normal. It's a drug culture, not a race based one.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| When a white boy shoots up a school I don't think it's because of surburban white culture. |
If you really believe white suburban culture has had a 0% impact on such events, then you are once again being willfully ignorant. If, on the other hand, you don't believe that, then the above quote is not a true depiction of your stance on this matter. |
Zero percent, no, but certainly a low low percentage. I don't believe the fact that they listened to Marilyn Manson or that they grew up in a suburb was that relevant to what happened.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| When a member of the Mexican cartel shoots a rival, I don't think it's Mexican culture. |
This example is even worse. While there's no doubt that economic and international circumstances play a role with regards to Mexico's drug violence, it is first and foremost caused by Mexican culture. A nation doesn't become as corrupt and dysfunctional as Mexico "just because." |
I wasn't really referring to the fact that Mexico is corrupt or dysfunctional as much as the recent widespread violence. The current high level of violence in Mexico is a fairly recent thing. It is not because of culture, it is because of drugs, the war on drugs, and the perverse economic incentives associated with it. Just like how urban blacks weren't that violent, as Sirus Black posted earlier, before the crack epidermic of the 80's. In each case you have an impoverished group that has limited economic options given a perverse economic incentive to commit violence. Of course each individual makes their choice, but economics surely plays a larger role than culture.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| I mean if you want to talk about gang culture or crack culture or whatever then I'm with you. Urban black culture is using far too wide a brush. |
Yes, gang culture and drug culture are both real problems, and they stand out prominently. But you refuse to critically consider the source they draw from, or why certain wider cultures invariably envelope them. Those wider cultures continually recirculate a set of values which not only reinforce their poverty, but also cause them to play perfect host to their more extreme sub-cultures. Urban black culture will inevitably give rise to gang culture so long as it remains in the state its in. |
This is where I think you are off. Gang culture is a child of crack culture, and of poverty culture. Many of those involved in gang culture aren't poor. Most are, but blacks have less economic opportunities than whites. Many studies have been done that show that resumes with black sounding names get far fewer call backs than white sounding ones. Hell, many people consider my name to be a black name, so it affects me too man. (kidding, mostly) As long as it is seem as being more profitable to sling crack than to get a regular job, the culture will reflect that. It's more a matter of economics than culture.
| Leon wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
I've been robbed twice in my life. |
You misunderstand me. My comment was not meant to be an invitation for "let's share our anecdotes" hour. My comment was meant to show you that your sarcastic stab about me not having to worry about 'some black lady calling her homeboys to shoot up my bus,' was misplaced, both because this culture is something my family has all ready been affected by, and because my concern isn't limited to the immediate well being of myself and my family. Even if it never affects me again, it will still be a problem. Even if it only affected other black people ever, it would still be a problem. |
This whole thread is based off of a single incident, or anecdote, if you will. I got robbed, like you, yet I'm not scared of white culture. Whereas you seem to be taking this somewhat personally. You talk about statistics, so start a thread based on those, not on some appeal to emotion over a rare one time event and try and condemn an entire culture based on it.
| Leon wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
As far as sacered cows, not really. There is a lot wrong with black poverty culture. There is a lot wrong with white poverty culture, and hispanic poverty culture, etc. |
What is wrong with it, such that it's problematic, but has absolutely nothing to do with the kind of events we see here? Be specific. |
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here. Are you asking me about what is wrong with poverty culture, if you could clarify you're question I'd be glad to attempt to answer it.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| I mean I could post a story about a white person kidnapping someone or a meth lab blowing up and contaminating a neighborhood, I mean what's with these white people. |
Alternatively, could you post a story about some southern white youths beating and killing a totally innocent black man and point out the dysfunction that still lingers in southern white culture. And you'd be completely right. |
Not really, again southern white culture is way to big of a net. I'm white and southern, as are most of my friends. It's not our culture. It's the culture of white southern racists, but not white southerners. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
If I meant that the bus part was the uncommon part than yes, that would be disingenuous. There is a lot of crime in the urban black neighborhoods, but the randomness of this attack is what was unusual. |
There was no randomness here. What I saw was a woman who felt insulted and responded with excessive violence. Again, this form of behavior is not at all uncommon in these areas.
| Leon wrote: |
| Normal when there is violence it's over drug feuds, robbery, or if a gang member disrespects another one. |
If not for your choice to arbitrarily insist this behavior occurs only among gang members, you'd have perfectly explained this incident right here. Yet instead, you decide to declare it random in order to invalidate your own satisfactory explanation in order to cling to the notion that the larger surrounding community doesn't share in the cultural rot.
| Leon wrote: |
| Poor areas where there are lots of drugs, and a drug war going on. That's not a cultural thing. |
What? Drug wars, gangs, and so forth don't just fall out of the sky like meteors. Far from being simple brute facts, they occur based on the behavior of the people who live in the region, and that behavior in turn is driven largely by culture. Do economics play a role as well? Certainly, but they're part of an overall cycle rather than being a pure determiner; just as economic circumstances influence local culture, local culture influences economic circumstances. That's precisely why these cultural infections are so insidious: they drag people down and, in doing so, also destroy the very hand holds which could best serve to help them back up (which is why I suggested earlier in the thread that one of the best things we as outsiders can do to cure these problems is to promote the kind of economic re-development that would most help this demographic).
| Leon wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| When a white boy shoots up a school I don't think it's because of surburban white culture. |
If you really believe white suburban culture has had a 0% impact on such events, then you are once again being willfully ignorant. If, on the other hand, you don't believe that, then the above quote is not a true depiction of your stance on this matter. |
Zero percent, no, but certainly a low low percentage. |
None the less, this is quite different than your previous insistence, reducing our disagreement to merely a matter of degree.
| Leon wrote: |
| I don't believe the fact that they listened to Marilyn Manson or that they grew up in a suburb was that relevant to what happened. |
As if cultural causes are that simple. "I listened to some punk music, now I'm a vicious psychopath. I listened to some rap music and now I want to sell drugs and rape some ladies."
| Leon wrote: |
| I wasn't really referring to the fact that Mexico is corrupt or dysfunctional as much as the recent widespread violence. The current high level of violence in Mexico is a fairly recent thing. It is not because of culture, it is because of drugs, the war on drugs, and the perverse economic incentives associated with it. |
The war on drugs does play a role, but what makes the war on drugs such a potent stimulator of such behavior in Mexico is the nature of the society itself, which in turn is dictated by the collective character of the people who live there. This is exactly what I'm talking about: you want to see only the surface, only the most proximate of causes. I'm not saying there's no room for such considerations -- after all, these superficial causes can tell us about what we as outsiders can do to assist our fellow man! -- but if one truly wishes to understand circumstances, one must look deeper.
| Leon wrote: |
| This is where I think you are off. Gang culture is a child of crack culture, and of poverty culture. Many of those involved in gang culture aren't poor. Most are, but blacks have less economic opportunities than whites. Many studies have been done that show that resumes with black sounding names get far fewer call backs than white sounding ones. Hell, many people consider my name to be a black name, so it affects me too man. (kidding, mostly) As long as it is seem as being more profitable to sling crack than to get a regular job, the culture will reflect that. It's more a matter of economics than culture. |
This doesn't exactly contradict my position, not really. Even if the advent of gang culture is comparatively recent, there's a reason it took root where it did, and that reason goes beyond purely economic concerns. All you're really doing here is taking my own position on the self-reinforcing cycle of culture, poverty, and violent crime, plucking out the "culture" element and saying, "This is off limits," in an arbitrary fashion, then leaving the rest more or less intact, acting as if poverty and violent crime form a complete, self-explanatory cycle on their own. It's an incomplete explanation though; economic status does not translate into violent crime in some perfectly-predictable 1:1 ratio, and culture is what determines the actual "rate of translation."
| Leon wrote: |
| This whole thread is based off of a single incident, or anecdote, if you will. |
No it's not. Certainly, a single incident is what the original post is superficially about, but as you yourself said this is hardly the first time topics like this have been posted, and as I've tried to remind you, meaningful statistical evidence stands behind it all. While we're discussing through the lens of the original incident in this thread, that incident serves as a surrogate for an entire class of behavior that one need only look at crime data to see is plentiful.
| Leon wrote: |
| You talk about statistics, so start a thread based on those, not on some appeal to emotion over a rare one time event and try and condemn an entire culture based on it. |
No need for a new thread; plenty of statistics on this matter have been posted on these forums, and everyone participating in this thread in good faith should be keeping them in mind with each post they make in this thread, or, for that matter, any other thread on this topic. That goes double for people such as yourself who have mentioned those other threads in hopes of bolstering, if ever so slightly, their own point.
| Leon wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
As far as sacered cows, not really. There is a lot wrong with black poverty culture. There is a lot wrong with white poverty culture, and hispanic poverty culture, etc. |
What is wrong with it, such that it's problematic, but has absolutely nothing to do with the kind of events we see here? Be specific. |
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here. Are you asking me about what is wrong with poverty culture, if you could clarify you're question I'd be glad to attempt to answer it. |
You said, "There is a lot wrong with black [white, hispanic] poverty culture." I'm asking you to list some of the items in that group of "a lot" of things, because contrary to your assertion, I think those problems are related to events like this.
| Leon wrote: |
| Not really, again southern white culture is way to big of a net. I'm white and southern, as are most of my friends. It's not our culture. It's the culture of white southern racists, but not white southerners. |
I've met Koreans who dislike kimchi as well, so does that mean I need to change the statement, "Kimchi is a part of Korean culture," to, "Kimchi is a part of kimchi-eating Korean culture?" Of course not. Generalizations do not apply to all specific cases. We both know this. Why pretend otherwise? What matters is frequency. |
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