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Menino80

Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:52 pm Post subject:

stilicho25 wrote:

Well, I thought it was a good example of citizens defending themselves against thug cops and the elite of the time (Rockefellers, right?). It wasn't all that successful though. Like the ironworkers in Penn, they beat off the thugs but lost the battle in court, although in both cases the strikers eventually got off.

Yes, there are time when the threat of force can effect real change. However, any benefits from this threat are not enhanced by lax gun ownership laws, nor do these benefits outweigh the harm inflicted upon society by said laws.

Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team

Joined: 11 Mar 2008

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:30 pm Post subject:

visitorq wrote:

Captain Corea wrote:

Now, now, personal attacks are not needed. No need to call me spineless and such simply because I see a flaw in your assertion.

You didn't see a flaw, you just made up a straw man (as I pointed out in my previous post). Basically you've lost the debate, point for point. And since you're still too cowardly to take an actual stand on anything, you're a waste of time to engage with any further.

What did we say about personal attacks? I know people can lose their cool when they don't like someone's opinion, but attacking someone personally is against the rules; you know that. I am not commenting on the opinions, just the rules.

Ineverlie&I'malwaysri

Joined: 09 Aug 2011

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:28 pm Post subject:

Menino80 wrote:

visitorq wrote:

stilicho25 wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain

you say that like its never happened before menino.

Menino had been up for nearly 3 days straight playing video games in his mom's basement when he posted. So no need to pay it any heed, he wasn't in his, um, "right" mind.

Hey buddy, you are really good at throwing out insults like a twelve year old. Funnyhow nothing you ever post in response has anything to do with what is being discussed. Just throw out a crazy assertion and defend it with such ridiculous intensity that everybody just gets sick of talking to a lunatic and walks away. But you get to feel like you win because you are by far the only person in the world who gives a crap about your nutty antisocial views.

Speaking of against the rules, lunatic, nutty and antisocial would seem to me to qualify also.

Menino, who died and made you spokesman of the world? I know quite a few people who would agree with VQ.

recessiontime

Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:50 pm Post subject:

Enrico Palazzo wrote:

visitorq wrote:

Captain Corea wrote:

Now, now, personal attacks are not needed. No need to call me spineless and such simply because I see a flaw in your assertion.

I don't think what visitorq said is an attack, he is stating a fact. CC simply criticizes what others post without contributing anything else. This is almost always the case in other threads and frankly I'm getting a little tired of it myself.

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:08 pm Post subject:

I've contributed numerous links and sources to this discussion. If you bothered to read through the thread, you'd see that. Calling me cowardly and such just because I don't always come out with strong opinions on every issue isn't needed. When I have a strong opinion, I state it. When I don't, I may ask questions or post links that explore other options. When I see statements that ring false to me, I ask after them. If you don't like that style of posting, don't fret. There's nothing obligating you to reply to me.

UknowsI

Joined: 16 Apr 2009

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:07 pm Post subject:

I don't really know anything about American gun laws. Are people allowed to carry guns when they go out drinking?

northway

Joined: 05 Jul 2010

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:12 pm Post subject:

UknowsI wrote:

I don't really know anything about American gun laws. Are people allowed to carry guns when they go out drinking?

Depends on the state, but yes, some states have concealed carry laws that allow firearms in bars.

Menino80

Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:07 pm Post subject:

Ineverlie&I'malwaysri wrote:

I know quite a few people who would agree with the fact that devoting time and space to those views is simply off the table.

UknowsI

Joined: 16 Apr 2009

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:17 pm Post subject:

northway wrote:

UknowsI wrote:

I don't really know anything about American gun laws. Are people allowed to carry guns when they go out drinking?

Depends on the state, but yes, some states have concealed carry laws that allow firearms in bars.

While I'm not particularly against people owning weapons, I can't imagine how it could be a good idea to allow drunk men carry guns. Many places wont even sell bottled beer because they are afraid it can be used as a weapon, but how does it compare with a gun?

I have never lived a place where it is allowed to bring firearms to bars, so maybe people behave drastically different there, but from my experience there is a quite large percentage of the population who can do unwise things while under the influence of alcohol.

Now I admit that this has absolutely nothing to do with the OP, but it seems like the last 5 pages has mostly been about firearm laws anyway.

northway

Joined: 05 Jul 2010

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:19 pm Post subject:

UknowsI wrote:

northway wrote:

UknowsI wrote:

I don't really know anything about American gun laws. Are people allowed to carry guns when they go out drinking?

Depends on the state, but yes, some states have concealed carry laws that allow firearms in bars.

Yeah, it strikes me as an epic logic fail, personally, though somehow drunken bar shootings are a rarity.

visitorq

Joined: 11 Jan 2008

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:52 am Post subject:

Captain Corea wrote:

I've contributed numerous links and sources to this discussion. If you bothered to read through the thread, you'd see that.

Calling me cowardly and such just because I don't always come out with strong opinions on every issue isn't needed.

When I have a strong opinion, I state it. When I don't, I may ask questions or post links that explore other options. When I see statements that ring false to me, I ask after them.

If you don't like that style of posting, don't fret. There's nothing obligating you to reply to me.

Maybe he took offense to your calling people "pathetic" earlier. No doubt a lot of people on here would have.

visitorq

Joined: 11 Jan 2008

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:57 am Post subject:

Menino80 wrote:

stilicho25 wrote:

Speaking of useless assertions totally unbacked by any logical argument whatsoever... Clearly menino just dropped into the thread to troll and didn't even read through the discussions (in this fairly long thread), else he would have responded to some of the previous arguments (on either side) instead of just popping by to make a smart ass remark (as he always does).

I don't feel that Captain Corea has yet come up with a rational case to back his views on gun laws (and the complaining about "name calling" comes off as hypocritical), but to his credit he at least he ended up actually participating in the overall discussion (albeit reluctantly). Menino on the other hand, has added nothing. As usual.

ghostrider

Joined: 27 Jun 2011

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:04 am Post subject:

UknowsI wrote:

northway wrote:

UknowsI wrote:

I don't really know anything about American gun laws. Are people allowed to carry guns when they go out drinking?

Depends on the state, but yes, some states have concealed carry laws that allow firearms in bars.

While I'm not particularly against people owning weapons, I can't imagine how it could be a good idea to allow drunk men carry guns.

People that own guns and pack heat are much more likely to binge drink and drive while intoxicated than average. The kinds of people who like guns tend to be the kinds of people that can least be trusted with lethal weapons. No wonder more guns doesn't mean less crime.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/16/news/la-heb-guns-alcohol-gunowners-risk-taking-20110615

visitorq

Joined: 11 Jan 2008

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:42 am Post subject:

ghostrider wrote:

UknowsI wrote:

northway wrote:

UknowsI wrote:

I don't really know anything about American gun laws. Are people allowed to carry guns when they go out drinking?

Depends on the state, but yes, some states have concealed carry laws that allow firearms in bars.

While I'm not particularly against people owning weapons, I can't imagine how it could be a good idea to allow drunk men carry guns.

More propaganda. In the first place, that source is very suspect (and the study they use can't even be accessed without a subscription). Contrary to what you stated, there is no mention of "binge drinking and driving while intoxicated", rather it claims that subjects were more likely to drive while having had "a little too much to drink" (rather a big discrepancy with what you wrote). Yet it's funny how despite DUI being illegal (a felony in some states), they still somehow claim to have gotten that many gun owners to confess to a crime. Yeah right. The whole article smacks of fiction. Statements like "one third are thought to have" = pulling figures out of your behind... and the figures can't even be confirmed since I'd have to pay for a description to access the study.

Nevertheless, even if we do go ahead and assume the findings are true, in no way does it prove that gun owners are in general irresponsible or dangerous. Plenty of people who don't own guns are reckless binge drinkers, and plenty of gun owners are responsible law abiding people who don't drink at all. That article is basically implying that all rectangles are squares, because all squares are rectangles... It's absurd.

Quote:

No wonder more guns doesn't mean less crime.

Crimes are committed independent of gun ownership. There is very little, if any, correlation. On the other hand, a higher rate of gun ownership does mean that more people can protect themselves from criminals (nearly a million cases per year, not including those that go unreported) than would be the case otherwise. Simply put, the more law abiding, gun carrying citizens a society has, the better off and safer that society will be.

Menino80

Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:31 am Post subject:

visitorq wrote:

More propaganda.

how? it seems to me you're just terming anything that disagrees with your worldview propoganda

Quote:

In the first place, that source is very suspect

why? you can't just declare things so and make it true. the journal describes itself as "An international peer-reviewed journal for health professionals and others in injury prevention". what about that makes it suspect? this is what i'm talking about.

you don't have positions, you have a religion. anything that doesn't fit into your dogma gets tossed aside.

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