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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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 Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| shifty wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
I'm not saying it's right or even a good attitude, and neither is Shifty by the way, but it is quite prevalent.
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Thankyou wayguk-in, for highlighting that it is NOT ME saying it's a good thing. Since there appears to be confusion in some quarters.
Yeah, first law of salesmanship: Find out what the customer wants and give it to him. |
True enough.
However, the presentation you made of it was rather simplistic (as in too black and white) to represent the broader reality.
Some schools will indeed prefer younger inexperienced foreign teachers. Public schools for example hire through programs that favor that type of hire (assistant teachers hired for conversational English).
Still, age does not equate to connecting with yougner students. What does establish a connection is skill, attitude and ability to know how to reach students. That is far less about age than it is about training, outlook and attitude.
So in essence you can "give the customer what they want" and hire a more competent teacher.
Thats all I am saying.
Now does this happen in Korea?
For the most part it does not and this is due to many factors, namely the visa requirements being so low, the demand and the role and mandate of foreign teachers in many schools/Hakwons.
The place that hires a teacher also has a lot to do with the type of teacher they hire. For example, a university might not want some fresh grad with no experience due to "what their customers" want. Some Hakwons may want more experienced teachers as well.
What it will boil down to is the position being staffed: entry-level or other.
Cheers |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| However, the presentation you made of it was rather simplistic (as in too black and white) to represent the broader reality. |
The essence of my post was addressed to young Bruce. He hasn't been to Korea and needs great sweeps of the brush to see the light.
Paddy, if I had used phrase, 'for all intents and purposes' to cater for your exacting eye, would the post have squeezed past you?
I aim to please. |
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Kwangjuchicken
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
| A native teacher should have a strong background in a foreign language (any language) in order to understand what it is all about to learn a foreign langauge. |
I disagree.
I hated learning Spanish when I was in high school. I had absolutely NO background whatsoever in ANY foreign language upon arriving in Korea. BUT, I went to college to be a teacher. Furthermore, I like kids, I like to help people and I understand how the young mind thinks. It doesn't take exposure and knowledge of another language to know how to teach ESL. It takes a person who has knowledge of educational techniques and awareness of how the human mind works and takes in knowledge.
I'd also like to add if you don't know to talk slow, use easy or level-appropriate words, and pronounce everything you say clearly before entering ESL--you should have stayed out and done something else. Nothing makes me more angry to see a "teacher" talk way too fast, garble his words and spit them out incomprehensibly even to me. I've known a few in the past and they had NO business teaching English. They should have stayed in basket weaving, or whatever their "career" was before coming to Korea.[/quote]
*****************************************************
Not knowing Spanish probably helped you more than you know. When I first entered Korea, I was always trying to answer people in Spanish. (because my brain had to get past the idea of learning yet another language)
I also studied French in university, so I was not unaware about learning languages.
Studying Indo-European languages really doesn't prepare you for what you will face in Asia. Before coming to Korea, I taught EFL in Mexico,
so I wasn't new to teaching either. This is what I was trying to explain, my past experience really wasn't all that helpful in Korea, in fact it gave me more of an ego-complex to get over first.
I agree with what you've said by the way.[/quote]
Red and orange. You can not have it both ways.
Why did you hate Spanish? That experience could be quite helpful to you. You can reflect on the reasons why you did not like it and what you would have done differently if you had been the Spanish teacher. Then that information can be applied to what you do when you teach English. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| shifty wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| However, the presentation you made of it was rather simplistic (as in too black and white) to represent the broader reality. |
The essence of my post was addressed to young Bruce. He hasn't been to Korea and needs great sweeps of the brush to see the light.
Paddy, if I had used phrase, 'for all intents and purposes' to cater for your exacting eye, would the post have squeezed past you?
I aim to please. |
Sigh...
No insult was intended and it was clear your post aimed at Bruce. This is just a discussion on an interesting topic. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| shifty wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| However, the presentation you made of it was rather simplistic (as in too black and white) to represent the broader reality. |
The essence of my post was addressed to young Bruce. He hasn't been to Korea and needs great sweeps of the brush to see the light.
Paddy, if I had used phrase, 'for all intents and purposes' to cater for your exacting eye, would the post have squeezed past you?
I aim to please. |
Sigh...
No insult was intended and it was clear your post aimed at Bruce. This is just a discussion on an interesting topic. |
You should know me by now, I was just being cantankerous. I promise to mend my ways, if at all possible.
Actually, young Bruce is the one who appears to be a little miffed. |
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Chris.Quigley
Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Location: Belfast. N Ireland
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Accounting is dry and boring... if that's what you make of it.
I like accounting, it isn't dry or boring to me, otherwise I wouldn't be studying it. (I am not a fan of financial accounting which is why I am considering the CMA designation.)
Having international experience in a field where you will be working with people from many different backgrounds definitely sets me apart from the other kids who are graduating that haven't even left their mother's basement. (Most of you think GPA doesn't matter too... actually it does... most accounting firms will NEVER hire you unless you have a GPA above a (3.0-3.3)/4.3 depending on the firm.)
I was talking to a friend of mine at Starbucks today (former Uni Prof at UBC), he put it this way:
"If you don't have the right degree and the right grades, no one cares about who you know." (Also contrary to modern wisdom)
The same can be said for international experience:
"If you don't have the right educational background/experience/skill-set, no one cares about your international experience."
The reason that for most of you ESL experience in Korea means nothing to potential employers is that your degree itself means nothing to them.
Arts degrees don't lower costs, increase productivity, invent new products, or add value to what most companies, government organizations, non-profits, and even churches are trying to accomplish.
If you don't add value... you don't get hired... period.
You get hired where you can add value... Koreans think you are adding value, you should be happy about that. In America, Starbucks thinks you add value.
I am being a little harsh maybe... I have friends with econ degrees and other arts degrees working for banks for 12$/hour... I have friends with history degrees and psych degrees working on oil rigs in Alberta, Canada.
But... no one cares that they have a degree... |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris.Quigley wrote: |
| Arts degrees don't lower costs, increase productivity, invent new products, or add value to what most companies, government organizations, non-profits, and even churches are trying to accomplish. |
Yet many, many NGOs want poli sci degrees... |
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Menino80
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Kwangjuchicken wrote: |
| I'd also like to add if you don't know to talk slow, use easy or level-appropriate words, and pronounce everything you say clearly before entering ESL--you should have stayed out and done something else. |
This is simply not true. Leveling speech can be learned. quite quickly at that. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris.Quigley wrote: |
Accounting is dry and boring... if that's what you make of it.
I like accounting (I am not a fan of financial accounting which is why I am considering the CMA designation.) |
You are presumably responding to silkhighway's remarks. He doesn't say accounting is 'dry and boring', he says it's 'technical and dry'.
Many folks enjoy dry stuff, doesn't mean it's boring. You might find that poster silkhighway himself can't get enough of accounting.
On the other hand you admit to shying away from 'financial accounting' and being more receptive to 'management accounting'.
Do you perceive that the one is more dry than the other? |
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Kwangjuchicken
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| Menino80 wrote: |
| Kwangjuchicken wrote: |
| I'd also like to add if you don't know to talk slow, use easy or level-appropriate words, and pronounce everything you say clearly before entering ESL--you should have stayed out and done something else. |
This is simply not true. Leveling speech can be learned. quite quickly at that. |
What you quoted was not from any of my posts.  |
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TECO
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| Kwangjuchicken wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
| A native teacher should have a strong background in a foreign language (any language) in order to understand what it is all about to learn a foreign langauge. |
I disagree.
I hated learning Spanish when I was in high school. I had absolutely NO background whatsoever in ANY foreign language upon arriving in Korea. BUT, I went to college to be a teacher. Furthermore, I like kids, I like to help people and I understand how the young mind thinks. It doesn't take exposure and knowledge of another language to know how to teach ESL. It takes a person who has knowledge of educational techniques and awareness of how the human mind works and takes in knowledge.
I'd also like to add if you don't know to talk slow, use easy or level-appropriate words, and pronounce everything you say clearly before entering ESL--you should have stayed out and done something else. Nothing makes me more angry to see a "teacher" talk way too fast, garble his words and spit them out incomprehensibly even to me. I've known a few in the past and they had NO business teaching English. They should have stayed in basket weaving, or whatever their "career" was before coming to Korea. |
*****************************************************
Not knowing Spanish probably helped you more than you know. When I first entered Korea, I was always trying to answer people in Spanish. (because my brain had to get past the idea of learning yet another language)
I also studied French in university, so I was not unaware about learning languages.
Studying Indo-European languages really doesn't prepare you for what you will face in Asia. Before coming to Korea, I taught EFL in Mexico,
so I wasn't new to teaching either. This is what I was trying to explain, my past experience really wasn't all that helpful in Korea, in fact it gave me more of an ego-complex to get over first.
I agree with what you've said by the way.[/quote]
Red and orange. You can not have it both ways.
Why did you hate Spanish? That experience could be quite helpful to you. You can reflect on the reasons why you did not like it and what you would have done differently if you had been the Spanish teacher. Then that information can be applied to what you do when you teach English.[/quote]
---------------
Which text is yours?
Clean it up a bit, I'm interested in reading what you wrote. |
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Kwangjuchicken
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| Kennyftw wrote: |
| Kwangjuchicken wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
Not sure if this has been mentioned,
One huge myth that seems to be common in this industry is the idea that because someone is a native speaker of English (or any other language for that matter), one will automatically be a better teacher.
In my ignorance, I first came to Korea believing such stuff as that. It took me a couple of years (perhaps more) to realize that I was not God's gift to the ESL community and that I had a lot to learn. (perhaps I am not finished learning that lesson yet)
I'm not saying that a native speaker can't be a good teacher, just that being a native speaker does not guarantee anything.
What it does seem to guarantee is that you will THINK you are a better teacher, just because you are a native speaker.
While I studied Korean (or tried to) I found that the worst teachers or tutors I could find were native speakers. They had no empathy with me as a student, often re-hashing things I already knew, but were unable or unwilling to explain things I asked about.
I asked myself,"Is this how I come across to my students?"
One thing I agree with Patrick about is that FT's in Korea should study Korean.
Not only to learn the language but to learn how vastly different Korean and English are,
to learn why translation is sometimes necessary for
low level students
and also to learn where too much translation is a hindrance rather than a help.
Also to be able to see where Korean students are coming from and why they have such trouble with certain concepts. |
A native teacher should have a strong background in a foreign language (any language) in order to understand what it is all about to learn a foreign langauge. |
I disagree.
I hated learning Spanish when I was in high school. I had absolutely NO background whatsoever in ANY foreign language upon arriving in Korea. BUT, I went to college to be a teacher. Furthermore, I like kids, I like to help people and I understand how the young mind thinks. It doesn't take exposure and knowledge of another language to know how to teach ESL. It takes a person who has knowledge of educational techniques and awareness of how the human mind works and takes in knowledge.
I'd also like to add if you don't know to talk slow, use easy or level-appropriate words, and pronounce everything you say clearly before entering ESL--you should have stayed out and done something else. Nothing makes me more angry to see a "teacher" talk way too fast, garble his words and spit them out incomprehensibly even to me. I've known a few in the past and they had NO business teaching English. They should have stayed in basket weaving, or whatever their "career" was before coming to Korea. |
The quote system is messed up on my post about this one. The only part that was me (kwangjuchicken) was:
" Red and orange. You can not have it both ways.
Why did you hate Spanish? That experience could be quite helpful to you. You can reflect on the reasons why you did not like it and what you would have done differently if you had been the Spanish teacher. Then that information can be applied to what you do when you teach English." |
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| Chris.Quigley wrote: |
Accounting is dry and boring... if that's what you make of it.
I like accounting, it isn't dry or boring to me, otherwise I wouldn't be studying it. (I am not a fan of financial accounting which is why I am considering the CMA designation.) |
What I mean when I said it is 'technical and dry' is that they know exactly what they're looking for when they hire an accountant. You've already mentioned they're looking for a GPA of 3.0. Obviously they're also looking for the CMA designation. Any job you would consider as a career that is how they're going to test you. And then if you get past that test, maybe they might care about your personality a little bit, but it's going to be more about "can we get along with this person" than anything else.
| Quote: |
Having international experience in a field where you will be working with people from many different backgrounds definitely sets me apart from the other kids who are graduating that haven't even left their mother's basement. |
You're making a big leap here that most people aren't going to have any other experiences to put on their resume. I have a friend who had recently left his career in IT technical support to get a CMA designation.So is your "international experience" teaching English in Korea more relevant than his several years in IT technical support? Or how about that kid living in his parents basement who just graduated, but he happened to play left-wing on the university hockey team? Or the other kid who did a university exchange program in France? Whose experience is more relevant? None of them matter! They're something to talk about after they've already made the decision you have what they're looking for. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| Menino80 wrote: |
| Kwangjuchicken wrote: |
| I'd also like to add if you don't know to talk slow, use easy or level-appropriate words, and pronounce everything you say clearly before entering ESL--you should have stayed out and done something else. |
This is simply not true. Leveling speech can be learned. quite quickly at that. |
Well, yes and no. I know that some say that, but I've found for myself that I need to have things slowed down and simplified.
A good example of what I mean is the Sogang website for learning Korean.
It's way too fast and covers way too much material for beginning learners.
http://korean.sogang.ac.kr/
I struggled with it for years trying to pick stuff up, but just ended up frustrated and not learning much.
What really helped me learn was the radio Korea site which has those goofy sounding, droid-like but slow dialogues.
http://rki.kbs.co.kr/learn_korean/lessons/e_index.htm
And I really wish I had known about these early on:
http://www.learnkickasskorean.com/old-series-lsk-lesson-1-part-1/
Now I can use the sogang web site, after much practice, but it's still fast.
Trying to learn full speed, complex sentences
may work for some learners, but it certainly didn't help me.
I had to first learn slow, easy sentences first, and gradually work on larger more complex things.
I really think it depends on the level of the student, their age, and what type of learner they are.
I had a similar experience learning Spanish and French, I simply could not learn things at full speed. It wasn't until I discovered Pimsleur language programs that I found learning a lot easier. Sorry if this seems like a plug for them, I hated their Korean program. (found it next to useless) |
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Kwangjuchicken
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
| Menino80 wrote: |
| [quote="Kwangjuchicken"]I'd also like to add if you don't know to talk slow, use easy or level-appropriate words, and pronounce everything you say clearly before entering ESL--you should have stayed out and done something else. |
This is simply not true. Leveling speech can be learned. quite quickly at that. |
Well, yes and no. I know that some say that, but I've found for myself that I need to have things slowed down and simplified.
A good example of what I mean is the Sogang website for learning Korean.
It's way too fast and covers way too much material for beginning learners.
http://korean.sogang.ac.kr/
I struggled with it for years trying to pick stuff up, but just ended up frustrated and not learning much.
What really helped me learn was the radio Korea site which has those goofy sounding, droid-like but slow dialogues.
http://rki.kbs.co.kr/learn_korean/lessons/e_index.htm
And I really wish I had known about these early on:
http://www.learnkickasskorean.com/old-series-lsk-lesson-1-part-1/
Now I can use the sogang web site, after much practice, but it's still fast.
Trying to learn full speed, complex sentences
may work for some learners, but it certainly didn't help me.
I had to first learn slow, easy sentences first, and gradually work on larger more complex things.
I really think it depends on the level of the student, their age, and what type of learner they are.
I had a similar experience learning Spanish and French, I simply could not learn things at full speed. It wasn't until I discovered Pimsleur language programs that I found learning a lot easier. Sorry if this seems like a plug for them, I hated their Korean program. (found it next to useless)[/quote]
The quote above that I made big and bold I NEVER SAID IT WAS SAID BY: Kennyftw |
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