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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| rainism wrote: |
no disagreement.
my POINT was that any carb loading only occurs just before the competition date... |
"no disagreement"? Wasn't this the core of our argument?
I said "This is true. Athletes from bodybuilders to marathon runners usually carb up before an event"
You replied "completely false on the former, true on the latter. bodybuilding is anaerobic and a different kind of "sport". as previously noted, bodybuilders eliminate virtually all carbs just prior to a contest"
(bolding mine) |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
| Why do so many people feel the need to get into the scientific minutae of diet and nutrition? . |
Because some of us find it more interesting and informative than the umpteenth thread about how to score with K-girls or where to find the most foreigner-friendly bar?
Maybe some people like a good scientific debate? If it doesn't interest you, feel free to scroll on by. |
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liveinkorea316
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:17 am Post subject: |
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Losing weight is a basic formula. Energy in vs energy out. Atkins and calorie restriction diets achieve exactly the same goal, just through different means. Atkins does it by protein and calorie restriction diets do it by eating a variety of foods. Their key similarity is that they both restrict caloric intake to less than that expended by the body.
Proponents of the low carb diets claim it is easier than other carb inclusive diets. This does not necessarily make it ideal, just that it in particular supresses appetite more than a balanced diet. A balaced diet has the advantage of giving more variety of vitamins and minerals.
Also, I have tried fasting 3 times so far. 14 days, 5 days and 6 days. I mean absolutely no food or calories - only water. I never had any negative impacts on my body, only good ones. It is very hard to resist food but the weight loss is amazing. Your energy is low but you generally lose 1 pound per day or more. |
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Milkman Dan
Joined: 10 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:29 am Post subject: |
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To all of the people who are saying that counting calories is the sure fire way to lose weight, you're either forgetting or simply don't understand two very important facts.
1) The 1st law of thermodynamics is based on a closed system.
2) The human body is an open system.
So please do everyone a favor and stop talking about things you don't even have the slightest understanding of. That's why people need to focus on the "minutiae" of nutrition, because "JUST EAT FEWER CALORIES HUURRRRR!!!11" is wrong and is an oversimplified mantra for retards. |
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rainism
Joined: 13 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| rainism wrote: |
no disagreement.
my POINT was that any carb loading only occurs just before the competition date... |
"no disagreement"? Wasn't this the core of our argument?
I said "This is true. Athletes from bodybuilders to marathon runners usually carb up before an event"
You replied "completely false on the former, true on the latter. bodybuilding is anaerobic and a different kind of "sport". as previously noted, bodybuilders eliminate virtually all carbs just prior to a contest"
(bolding mine) |
my bad.
I wasn't thinking of a specific "event". I was thinking of the long(er) journey to a particular state.
in that setup (akin to a person trying to lose fat/weight) calorie and carb deprivation is the order of the day.
just because they reload the carb over the course of a day or two just to achieve a certain look means nothing. The journey to get there is what we were talking about. |
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UknowsI
Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| liveinkorea316 wrote: |
Losing weight is a basic formula. Energy in vs energy out. Atkins and calorie restriction diets achieve exactly the same goal, just through different means. Atkins does it by protein and calorie restriction diets do it by eating a variety of foods. Their key similarity is that they both restrict caloric intake to less than that expended by the body.
Proponents of the low carb diets claim it is easier than other carb inclusive diets. This does not necessarily make it ideal, just that it in particular supresses appetite more than a balanced diet. A balaced diet has the advantage of giving more variety of vitamins and minerals.
Also, I have tried fasting 3 times so far. 14 days, 5 days and 6 days. I mean absolutely no food or calories - only water. I never had any negative impacts on my body, only good ones. It is very hard to resist food but the weight loss is amazing. Your energy is low but you generally lose 1 pound per day or more. |
Well written. To be honest I think most of the diet experts agree with this, but like to discredit other diet systems to make their own diet more popular. This will then lead to fans and followers bad mouthing each other and claiming that their system is right and the other is wrong. These fans are probably the ones spreading "low carb myths" because they often have very limited knowledge on the subject but is only basing it on a few diet commercials or articles with an agenda. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Milkman Dan wrote: |
To all of the people who are saying that counting calories is the sure fire way to lose weight, you're either forgetting or simply don't understand two very important facts.
1) The 1st law of thermodynamics is based on a closed system.
2) The human body is an open system.
So please do everyone a favor and stop talking about things you don't even have the slightest understanding of. That's why people need to focus on the "minutiae" of nutrition, because "JUST EAT FEWER CALORIES HUURRRRR!!!11" is wrong and is an oversimplified mantra for retards. |
The first law of thermodynamics applies to open systems as well. Google it.
And yes eating [i[ a lot[/i] less calories will lead to weight loss. If you require say 2000 per day to maintain your weight do you think that eating 1000 per day will not result in you losing weight?
Fewer calories work. The problem is that people underestimate the number of calories they eat and overestimate the amount of work they do. Not to mention that everyone's BMR is different and thus diets and exercises vary by results.
And then after either intentionally or unintentionally sabotaging their exercise/diet regime, they claim "it doesn't work." |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Milkman Dan wrote: |
To all of the people who are saying that counting calories is the sure fire way to lose weight, you're either forgetting or simply don't understand two very important facts.
1) The 1st law of thermodynamics is based on a closed system.
2) The human body is an open system.
So please do everyone a favor and stop talking about things you don't even have the slightest understanding of. That's why people need to focus on the "minutiae" of nutrition, because "JUST EAT FEWER CALORIES HUURRRRR!!!11" is wrong and is an oversimplified mantra for retards. |
The first law of thermodynamics applies to open systems as well. Google it.
And yes eating [i[ a lot[/i] less calories will lead to weight loss. If you require say 2000 per day to maintain your weight do you think that eating 1000 per day will not result in you losing weight?
Fewer calories work. The problem is that people underestimate the number of calories they eat and overestimate the amount of work they do. Not to mention that everyone's BMR is different and thus diets and exercises vary by results.
And then after either intentionally or unintentionally sabotaging their exercise/diet regime, they claim "it doesn't work." |
So you're saying calorie counting doesn't work as well in practice as it does in theory.
No shit. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Milkman Dan wrote: |
To all of the people who are saying that counting calories is the sure fire way to lose weight, you're either forgetting or simply don't understand two very important facts.
1) The 1st law of thermodynamics is based on a closed system.
2) The human body is an open system.
So please do everyone a favor and stop talking about things you don't even have the slightest understanding of. That's why people need to focus on the "minutiae" of nutrition, because "JUST EAT FEWER CALORIES HUURRRRR!!!11" is wrong and is an oversimplified mantra for retards. |
The first law of thermodynamics applies to open systems as well. Google it.
And yes eating [i[ a lot[/i] less calories will lead to weight loss. If you require say 2000 per day to maintain your weight do you think that eating 1000 per day will not result in you losing weight?
Fewer calories work. The problem is that people underestimate the number of calories they eat and overestimate the amount of work they do. Not to mention that everyone's BMR is different and thus diets and exercises vary by results.
And then after either intentionally or unintentionally sabotaging their exercise/diet regime, they claim "it doesn't work." |
So you're saying calorie counting doesn't work as well in practice as it does in theory.
No shit. |
Well you and I might think this is so obvious that it need not be said, but if you read the thread it seems even more obvious that some people can not comprehend even something so simple. |
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drydell
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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I follow a lot of nutrition blogs and i've enjoyed watching a little drama unfold recently in the low carb/paleo world..
The Paleo people had their first convention recently called 'Ancestral Health Symposium'
During a talk by respected Paleo chap Stephan Guyenet, Gary Taubes (darling of the low-carb world) started a pretty rude questioning of his SG's food reward theory.. see here..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hzoFgwFeMQ&feature=player_embedded
So the Paleo people are pretty livid - especially as many of them are starting to see low-carb as a simplistic and dumb older brother who keeps following them around (  )..
So in response, SG has now written what is being seen as the first major take-down of the low-carb theory of fat accumulation proposed by Taubes.
see here-
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis-of-obesity.html
I think we are starting to see the beginning-of-the-end of the low carb movement....and I think that it's the paleo world itself that will be banging in the final nail on the low-carb coffin....
(I'll be sitting back with some high-carb popcorn to enjoy the show)  |
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ghostrider
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| drydell wrote: |
I follow a lot of nutrition blogs and i've enjoyed watching a little drama unfold recently in the low carb/paleo world..
The Paleo people had their first convention recently called 'Ancestral Health Symposium'
During a talk by respected Paleo chap Stephan Guyenet, Gary Taubes (darling of the low-carb world) started a pretty rude questioning of his SG's food reward theory.. see here..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hzoFgwFeMQ&feature=player_embedded
So the Paleo people are pretty livid - especially as many of them are starting to see low-carb as a simplistic and dumb older brother who keeps following them around ( )..
So in response, SG has now written what is being seen as the first major take-down of the low-carb theory of fat accumulation proposed by Taubes.
see here-
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis-of-obesity.html
I think we are starting to see the beginning-of-the-end of the low carb movement....and I think that it's the paleo world itself that will be banging in the final nail on the low-carb coffin....
(I'll be sitting back with some high-carb popcorn to enjoy the show) |
I have heard a lot of the same things. A lot of people who attended thought that Taubes was rude, but he did apologize later to Guyenet in private. Guyenet has a Ph.D. in neurobiology and studies body fat regulation. In this podcast Guyenet talks about his food reward theory. One of the things he discusses is why low carb diets often work but not for the reasons that low carbers claim.
http://thehealthyskeptic.org/the-healthy-skeptic-podcast-episode-10 |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Milkman Dan wrote: |
To all of the people who are saying that counting calories is the sure fire way to lose weight, you're either forgetting or simply don't understand two very important facts.
1) The 1st law of thermodynamics is based on a closed system.
2) The human body is an open system.
So please do everyone a favor and stop talking about things you don't even have the slightest understanding of. That's why people need to focus on the "minutiae" of nutrition, because "JUST EAT FEWER CALORIES HUURRRRR!!!11" is wrong and is an oversimplified mantra for retards. |
What Dan says here makes sense to me.
For example take the case of the chef. He perforce smells aromas for lengthy periods, his poor pancreas thinks he's about to gorge a meal and excretes wholesale insulin.
The insulin turns his blood sugar into fat and he, the chef, gets fat, even though he's a regular Jack Spratt.
I'm not telling, only asking. To me it's a bally minefield. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| shifty wrote: |
| Milkman Dan wrote: |
To all of the people who are saying that counting calories is the sure fire way to lose weight, you're either forgetting or simply don't understand two very important facts.
1) The 1st law of thermodynamics is based on a closed system.
2) The human body is an open system.
So please do everyone a favor and stop talking about things you don't even have the slightest understanding of. That's why people need to focus on the "minutiae" of nutrition, because "JUST EAT FEWER CALORIES HUURRRRR!!!11" is wrong and is an oversimplified mantra for retards. |
What Dan says here makes sense to me.
For example take the case of the chef. He perforce smells aromas for lengthy periods, his poor pancreas thinks he's about to gorge a meal and excretes wholesale insulin.
The insulin turns his blood sugar into fat and he, the chef, gets fat, even though he's a regular Jack Spratt.
I'm not telling, only asking. To me it's a bally minefield. |
That's not how it works. The pancreas has no sense of smell. It reacts to ingested carbohydrates. Besides which if he wasn't eating otherwise, his body would use that fat as fuel not store it. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="TheUrbanMyth"]
| shifty wrote: |
| Milkman Dan wrote: |
To all of the people who are saying that counting calories is the sure fire way to lose weight, you're either forgetting or simply don't understand two very important facts.
1) The 1st law of thermodynamics is based on a closed system.
2) The human body is an open system.
So please do everyone a favor and stop talking about things you don't even have the slightest understanding of. That's why people need to focus on the "minutiae" of nutrition, because "JUST EAT FEWER CALORIES HUURRRRR!!!11" is wrong and is an oversimplified mantra for retards. |
What Dan says here makes sense to me.
For example take the case of the chef. He perforce smells aromas for lengthy periods, his poor pancreas thinks he's about to gorge a meal and excretes wholesale insulin.
The insulin turns his blood sugar into fat and he, the chef, gets fat, even though he's a regular Jack Spratt.
I'm not telling, only asking. To me it's a bally minefield. |
| Quote: |
| That's not how it works. The pancreas has no sense of smell. |
But can't the brain send a message to the pancreas to 'look sharp' so that it can hit the ground running?
| Quote: |
| Besides which if he wasn't eating otherwise, his body would use that fat as fuel not store it. |
I understand this as part of the simple equation and that he would ultimately lose weight.
But the energy would not be as accessible from the now stored fat than if it were still in his blood. He would feel lethargic with all ensuing consequence. This last mentioned I think doesn't contradict what you say, it's just an aside from me.
What I want confirmed: Is it not possible to get fat from an ordinary diet yet extraordinary situation as in case of chef? Or a hard core swimmer, where the body can form an insulation against the cold?
As I say, I'm a know-nothing with this and bow to your superior wisdom. |
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minos
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Location: kOREA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
What I want confirmed: Is it not possible to get fat from an ordinary diet yet extraordinary situation as in case of chef? Or a hard core swimmer, where the body can form an insulation against the cold?
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Korean chefs seemed to be fairly thin or not hugely fat despite being around food all day.
If that was true, the food industry would be filled with whales. |
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