Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Mr. Pink]

[dutchman]

[Real Reality]

Do you think your salary and benefits should closer to a food service worker or closer to a legislator? If you teach in a university, should your salary and benefits be similar to a hagwon teacher or similar to a professor?

Of course, even if you have a Ph.D. and have hundreds of published articles, "a foreigner is not permitted to be a full-time professor."

E-1 Visa (Professor)
In the case of a national or a public university, a foreigner is not permitted to be a full-time professor.
http://www.moj.go.kr/immi/08_english/02_business/e_1.html

Foreigners seem to be prevented from getting tenure.
http://www.koreabridge.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3343

[Confused Canadian]

Just out of curiosity, why are you so obsessed with comparing the salary of ESL teachers in Korea to that of Korean professors and legislators? I, like many, seem to fail to notice the significance of this. You ask, "...does your salary and benefits package fairly represent the importance of and demand for a professional educator?"

First of all, is this not true everywhere in the world? Do I think it's fair that people that provide necessary services (i.e. teachers and police officers) are paid a fraction of the salary of professional athletes and actors? Of course not, but as CLG pointed out, that's capitalism. Show me a single job in North America that "fairly represents the importance of and demand for" it. How does one determine "fair" in this case anyway?

Secondly, why are we comparing two jobs that aren't even related? As mentioned earlier, why not compare the salaries of legislators from other countries with those of Korea. And what purpose would that serve? It would show us that one makes more money than the other.

Not sure if you have a vendetta against Korea, or some kind of inferiority complex when it comes to peoples' salaries, but whatever it is, take a pill.

Finally,

[dutchman]

[Mr. Pink]

Arguing with you is like trying to tell a Korean businessman to wear a condom on his sex trips...it's just a waste of breath.

Apparently the fact that most E-1 holders are just glorified hawgwon teachers was/is lost on you.

Not sure what will make you see the light.

It's too late now, but I think I will have to dig out some facts so that you stop posting this useless crap over and over.

Sleep is calling...I hope someone else cares to post something that will shut you up.

[Confused Canadian]

[Real Reality]

Confused Canadian wrote,

"They aren't asking for tenure, cause they know they don't deserve it, and the university seems more than happy to keep them around on a year-to-year contract.

BTW, is Korea the only country in the world where a foreigner can't get tenure? Just curious...."

We aren't they asking for tenure? Why don't they deserve it? Is job security important? Is academic freedom important? If they say or write something considered politically incorrect by the university, will their contracts be renewed?

Why aren't the Korean professors happy with year-to-year contracts?
Professors Protest Against Annual Contract System
http://www.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200201/200201060176.html

There are other countries that have difficulty granting tenure to foreigners.
For example, some universities in Japan seem to avoid granting tenure to foreigners.
The fact is, foreigners in Japanese universities are perfectly able to receive tenure anywhere; by law it is now entirely the decision of the university, not the Ministry of Education.
Blacklist
Full-time foreign nationals are treated as part-time staff (non-tenure).
http://www.debito.org/blacklist.html
Greenlist
grant tenure regardless of nationality to qualified candidates.
http://www.debito.org/greenlist.html

The justification for tenure was, and remains, a political one. One key function of academic institutions in a free, democratic society, is to speak truth to power. More specifically, one job of academics is to explore a variety of issues and opinions from a relatively impartial and objective viewpoint. If some of society's cherished shibboleths turn out to be unsupported by the evidence; or if, conversely, unpopular opinions have more rational justification, then, as the old saying goes, "let the chips fall where they may." This line of argument, which was made by Kant in the eighteenth century, provides academics with tenure because that is the only way they can perform one of their social roles: sorting out good and bad opinions so that social policies and individual actions can be based upon rational beliefs and values. Assuming that democracy functions best when rational opinions promote enlightened policies, the justification of tenure has some support in its favor.
The Political Nature of Tenure
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~aaup/postten/Hollinger.html

[Confused Canadian]

So, Korean universities aren't the only ones that won't give foreigners tenure, so why then do you keep beating a dead horse? We all know the situation in Korea; Korea isn't that special, and according to you, it isn't a special case.

[Falstaff]

[Real Reality]

What do you say to foreigners teaching in Korean universities that are trying to publish, advise students, contribute to the university development fund, edit articles, maintain office hours, serve on committees, and teach 16 - 20 hours each week? (Of course, the foreigners I am referring to have appropriate education credentials.)

Falstaff wrote,
"What was the purpose of the original post?"
The original post was intended to focus on the salary and benefits of legislators. They receive some good benefits. Perhaps, the Foreign Educators Union can file a petition with the Fair Employment Agency to get free Ticos for foreign professors.

Should the post have been in the GENERAL DISCUSSION FORUM?

[Homer]

Real Reality...

Your hopeless.

What does the salary of a legislator have to do with the salary of a teacher?

Answer: not a damn thing.

[Kalhoun]

The Legislator's salary is totally irrelevant, here. Real Reality, is there anything new under the sun with you?

Though I do believe that reciprocity should be practiced between Korea and other Western Nations. If a Korean Ph.D. can get tenure in Canadian uni, then so should a Canadian Ph.D. in a Korean uni. Whether that will ever happen is hard to know. Yet, I think reciprocity should be practiced. That should also equally go for citizenship.

[chinook]

well, i hope korean professors get more than me. I have a BA and want to teach english with no experience. a professor will have done an MA and Phd. Perhaps if i wanted such a well paid job, i should go back to uni and pony up the tuition and apply for that job. but i'm not going to.

[phaedrus]

Although not legislators, here is a Canadian university pay scale.

Where would a non-English speaking foreigner teaching their native language fit in at this Canadian university?

http://www.mta.ca/hr/compensation/mafa05-06.pdf