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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Using the suffering of the Kurdish people as a prop in your pro-Israeli argumentation is in poor taste. It's no different than the Arab nations (or individual actors, for that matter) who are ultimately indifferent to the plight of the Palestinians in-and-of itself, yet use them as a prop in their anti-Israeli crusade. This kind of hypocrisy is unreasonable. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Using the suffering of the Kurdish people as a prop in your pro-Israeli argumentation is in poor taste. It's no different than the Arab nations (or individual actors, for that matter) who are ultimately indifferent to the plight of the Palestinians in-and-of itself, yet use them as a prop in their anti-Israeli crusade. This kind of hypocrisy is unreasonable. |
Careful Fox, Junior will slap the self-hating Jew label on you before you know it. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| I thought this thread was about the Kurds. |
Then why did you and northway instantly steer it towards israel?
| Fox wrote: |
| Using the suffering of the Kurdish people as a prop in your pro-Israeli argumentation is in poor taste. It's no different than the Arab nations (or individual actors, for that matter) who are ultimately indifferent to the plight of the Palestinians in-and-of itself, yet use them as a prop in their anti-Israeli crusade. This kind of hypocrisy is unreasonable. |
Actually it is reasonable because it shows the hypocrisy of the posters and activists here.
If this thead wasn't done then there would be no discussion of it. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| I thought this thread was about the Kurds. |
Then why did you and northway instantly steer it towards israel?
| Fox wrote: |
| Using the suffering of the Kurdish people as a prop in your pro-Israeli argumentation is in poor taste. It's no different than the Arab nations (or individual actors, for that matter) who are ultimately indifferent to the plight of the Palestinians in-and-of itself, yet use them as a prop in their anti-Israeli crusade. This kind of hypocrisy is unreasonable. |
Actually it is reasonable because it shows the hypocrisy of the posters and activists here.
If this thead wasn't done then there would be no discussion of it. |
Can you please show me where I redirected it to Israel? This thread is all about Israel, and it is pathetic. I reissue my challenge. I'm equally interested in the Kurdish situations as other things, so lets not have any more Israel in this thread. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Can you please show me where I redirected it to Israel? |
right around here.
| Leon wrote: |
| I just want him to say that he supports a seperatist group that wants to form its own state in the Middle East. The irony would be great. |
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| Leon wrote: |
| I generally support groups rights to self determination, especially a large group with a distinct culture and a history of self governance. |
Then why do you support the "palestinians?"?
They have no history of self governance and no distinct culture.
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| Leon wrote: |
| Lets play a game Junior, you say that nobody cares about the poor Kurds. I think that you yourself don't care at all about them, but only about the poor Israelies. So for this thread, I won't talk about Israel, but only about the Kurds. I'm interested to see if my hypothesis was correct or not. My position is that the Kurds will never have their own state, as Kurdistan covers Iraq, Iran, Turkey, and Syria. If they were only based in one, or two countries, then they'd have a chance. As such none of thoose countries want to lose territory, so they will exert pressure on the others to stay strong on the Kurdish issue. Every country with Kurds in them have commited attrocities against them. Many consider Kurdish militia's terrorsit groups. I generally support groups rights to self determination, especially a large group with a distinct culture and a history of self governance. I think that if they can make messing with Kurdistan a losing proposition than eventually they can have more self rule, like they do in Iraq. One of histories most overlooked tragedies. |
You are trying to frame the Kurds as the "Palestinians" -when in fact there are enormous differences between the two situations. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Can you please show me where I redirected it to Israel? |
right around here.
| Leon wrote: |
| I just want him to say that he supports a seperatist group that wants to form its own state in the Middle East. The irony would be great. |
____________________________________________________________
| Leon wrote: |
| I generally support groups rights to self determination, especially a large group with a distinct culture and a history of self governance. |
Then why do you support the "palestinians?"?
They have no history of self governance and no distinct culture.
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| Leon wrote: |
| Lets play a game Junior, you say that nobody cares about the poor Kurds. I think that you yourself don't care at all about them, but only about the poor Israelies. So for this thread, I won't talk about Israel, but only about the Kurds. I'm interested to see if my hypothesis was correct or not. My position is that the Kurds will never have their own state, as Kurdistan covers Iraq, Iran, Turkey, and Syria. If they were only based in one, or two countries, then they'd have a chance. As such none of thoose countries want to lose territory, so they will exert pressure on the others to stay strong on the Kurdish issue. Every country with Kurds in them have commited attrocities against them. Many consider Kurdish militia's terrorsit groups. I generally support groups rights to self determination, especially a large group with a distinct culture and a history of self governance. I think that if they can make messing with Kurdistan a losing proposition than eventually they can have more self rule, like they do in Iraq. One of histories most overlooked tragedies. |
You are trying to frame the Kurds as the "Palestinians" -when in fact there are enormous differences between the two situations. |
I was talking about the Kurds in a thread you started about them. This may be hard to believe but not everyone is as interested in Israel as you. What a disappointing thread. I'm interested in the Middle East, but there isn't much chance to talk about it. I'm not framing the Kurds as the Palestinians, although I find your support of them ironic. They aren't the same, no group of people ever really are. Can you talk about the middle east without talking about Israel? I'm waiting to find out. Do you consider the PKK a terrorist group? They use terrorist tactics, they target civilians. I consider their call for a home land righteous, but are their tactics? What should you do when a state uses terror, do you reciprocate. I'm not sure what the right answer is. The PKK is truly a morally ambiguous situation. Anyways I do hope that this thread stays on topic, because I haven't kept up with them much recently and would like to hear what others think. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| for this thread I won't talk about Israel |
because you know you have zero argument.
Its funny how there is not so much as a squeak from the anti-semites on here nowadays. Maybe its because various islamic governments are currently promulgating barbaric atrocities against their own citizens. I guess its hard to paint israelis as devils when arabs are obviously a 1000 times worse.
Anyhow..on to the kurds.
yes, I support the cause of any cultural minority in the middle east. Muslims must be made to tolerate diversity instead of snuffing it all out in the name of allah.
| Quote: |
| Do you consider the PKK a terrorist group? |
if it engages in terrorism, then it is a terrorist group obviously. 
Why the sudden focus on condemning the Kurds?
Shouldn't you be slamming dinnerjackets inhuman monster regime for killing women and kids (in a neighboring country no less).
Oh I forgot. Iran gets a free pass with you because you want them to get nukes to bomb jews. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| for this thread I won't talk about Israel |
because you know you have zero argument.
Its funny how there is not so much as a squeak from the anti-semites on here nowadays. Maybe its because various islamic governments are currently promulgating barbaric atrocities against their own citizens. I guess its hard to paint israelis as devils when arabs are obviously a 1000 times worse.
Anyhow..on to the kurds.
yes, I support the cause of any cultural minority in the middle east. Muslims must be made to tolerate diversity instead of snuffing it all out in the name of allah.
| Quote: |
| Do you consider the PKK a terrorist group? |
if it engages in terrorism, then it is a terrorist group obviously.
Why the sudden focus on condemning the Kurds?
Shouldn't you be slamming dinnerjackets inhuman monster regime for killing women and kids (in a neighboring country no less).
Oh I forgot. Iran gets a free pass with you because you want them to get nukes to bomb jews. |
So you support a terrorist group? I mean it obviously is one. Talking about Iran lacks nuance, so it's uninteresting to talk about. I condemn Iran's actions, of course. I find Iran fascinating, in terms of it's people. My impression is that many Iranians are more westernized, liberal, educated, and decadent than other people in the middle east. I also find Persian culture more interesting than Arabic culture. If anything the green movement was a precursor to the Arab Spring, both in the youth protesting and in the government cracking down hard ala Syria. Also before that time they were one of the most democratic countries in the middle east, which isn't saying much. The uneasy balance of autoritarianism, theocratism and fair elections and opposition parties were interesting on several levels. Now unfortunately it has left behind it's little bit of actual democracy.
Do you support the PKK, it's one thing to say you support the Kurds in general, but to support the PKK is another thing. What's your reasoning? I support the Kurds, but am undecided about the PKK. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:12 am Post subject: |
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At any rate you are incorrect...because the PKK fights with Turkey and not Iran.
FYI Iran is not bombing the PKK , they are bombing other Kurdish groups. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| I was talking about the Kurds in general. If you Wish we can only talk about the Kurds in Iran. I find the Pkk interesting and am more familiar with the Turkish Kurds so that's why I mentioned them. |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Its funny how there is not so much as a squeak from the anti-semites on here nowadays. |
And just who would these anti-semites on here be? |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| I was talking about the Kurds in general. If you Wish we can only talk about the Kurds in Iran. I find the Pkk interesting and am more familiar with the Turkish Kurds so that's why I mentioned them. |
The PJAK is an offshoot of the PKK but it only fights in Iran.
Its stated goals are to bring a democratic, federal government to Iran where self-rule is granted to any and all ethnic minorities e.g. including azeris and kurds.
What I also enjoy about this group is thatdue to their message of feminism, half of their fighters are women. They seem to have had a fair amount of success fighting Iranian frces too.
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Iran�s justice system has provided no remedy to the obstacles and violence facing women and girls. The authorities do not even investigate complaints of rape, murder or suicide of women. The police and judiciary are openly biased against women and the violations they suffer. Iranian women human rights defenders have often aroused more hostility from the state authorities than their male colleagues because their activities are perceived as defying cultural, religious or social norms about the role of women. As a result, they face human rights violations not only for their work as human rights defenders but also because of their gender. The fate of women has been subjected to patriarchal system, the most cruel and inhuman system against women for the last millennium. Iran is one of these places that are dominated by religious fundamentalism and Political Islam. Worst of all is thatall these sort of mistreatment of women are backed and endorsed either by the constitution and cultural norms or by social customs. Nevertheless, Iranian women, particularly Kurdish women, are playing a leading role inthe struggle for democracy and human rights in the country. Among other activities, women�s groups are providing educationprogrammes for illiterate women, supporting victims of abuse, and generally raising awareness about women�s rights. The emergence of Free Life Party of Kurdistan (PJAK) pioneered by women and youths is regarded as a turning pointin the history of women�s struggle for freedom and equal rights. While PJAK has endeavoured to secularise the culture of the society, it advocate equal rights for women and men in all political, social and economic areas. PJAK has managed to achieve considerable positive results in this respect. The emergence of PJAK is seen as a negation of all mentalities that relegate women into such a humiliating position. PJAK is of opinion that the only solution to the women issue in Iran and Middle East istransformative education of women. To achieve this end PJAK has done its utmost to dismantle all the anti-women conceptsendorsed and practiced by the Iranian religious and theocratic authorities. PJAK has been running transformative educationcourse for the women in the areas of politics, philosophy, sociology, language and media. Through conferences and seminars, PJAK educated and enhanced women to a level that currently women have their own party, and even their own defence-forces.
http://rojwomen.com/2011/02/03/kurdistan-national-congress-analyses-the-situation-of-kurdish-women-in-iran/ |
Looking at their website http://pjak.org/english.php provides also a revealing look at what the Iran govt has been up to. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:29 am Post subject: |
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lol so much for Leons supposed interest in the Kurds.
anyhow, in summary.... when people engage in one sided selective criticism of Israel ignoring, or making excuses for far worse by it enemies it is more than fair to speculate on their motives.
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One good definition of anti-Semitism is taking a trait that is universal and singling out only the Jews for criticism in relation to that trait.
For example, in the 1920's, then Harvard President A. Lawrence Lowell decided that the number of Jews admitted to Harvard should be substantially reduced because "Jews cheat." When a distinguished alumnus of Harvard, Judge Learned Hand, pointed out to President Lowell that Protestants also cheat, Lowell responded, "You're changing the subject, we're talking about Jews." |
Alan Dershowitz
Compare what the Kurds want with what Hamas wants
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
case closed |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
lol so much for Leons supposed interest in the Kurds.
anyhow, in summary.... when people engage in one sided selective criticism of Israel ignoring, or making excuses for far worse by it enemies it is more than fair to speculate on their motives.
| Quote: |
One good definition of anti-Semitism is taking a trait that is universal and singling out only the Jews for criticism in relation to that trait.
For example, in the 1920's, then Harvard President A. Lawrence Lowell decided that the number of Jews admitted to Harvard should be substantially reduced because "Jews cheat." When a distinguished alumnus of Harvard, Judge Learned Hand, pointed out to President Lowell that Protestants also cheat, Lowell responded, "You're changing the subject, we're talking about Jews." |
Alan Dershowitz
Compare what the Kurds want with what Hamas wants
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
case closed |
I can't take a vacation without not caring about the Kurds? I had a nice week in Taiwan without internet, didn't really miss it.
In recent news Turkey is bombing the Kurds in Iraq.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/17/turkey-bombs-iraq-pkk-bases_n_929638.html
The thing about the PKK is that I believe that their cause is just, but their methods are not. It's hard to say what I feel about them. Also, my god man, are you obsessed with Israel? Anyways, who here is anti-semitic? Name some names McCarthy. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| Given the number of players involved, and the instability of those players, I don't think a free and independent Kurdistan is a realistic possibility. Palestine, fraught with issues though it may be, is a much more realistic option, given Israel's political stability and the fact that it's essentially a two party negotiation rather than one wherein four or five countries/interest groups have to come to a resolution. |
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