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Korean Job Discussion Forums "The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
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Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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So odd... One of the few times I've ever read a post by ttom and totally disagreed.
I personally, would much rather see the North "helped" by the US than left in the state it is currently in. Heck, ideally, I'd like to see the South take over the North.
One thing we're all forgetting though is that the DPRK is an information black hole. We can talk about how Iraq is worse, or Afghanistan is deadlier, but do we really know?
I'm guessing that no one on this forum has ever spent extensive time in the DPRK, and so, and claims about life there are... Kind of shots in the dark. |
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oldtrafford
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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Squire wrote
That's a fair argument, and there's no point in me claiming all American intervention is a good thing because it clearly isn't. Sometimes it is though. I believe Iraq has a far brighter future than it did. It's a good thing the US didn't stand aside and let Kim Il Sung take South Korea. It should go without saying (although very late) the American intervention in WW2 was a good thing. The American supported government in West Germany was a far better place to live than East Germany.
Trying telling that to the Russians, you came in late to claim spoils that didn't belong to you. Russia rightly felt avenged with broken promises, and 30 million men dead.
Iraq has a far brighter future, hahahahahhahahahahhahahahaah!! You Yanks need to look at your history books. Both the French and the British paid the price last century, thy country will suffer the same, along with thy puppy dog biatch, Britain. I'm British by the way!!
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jvalmer

Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Squire wrote: |
| During the 90s weapons inspectors found and destroyed a lot of WMDs. |
They found Chemical weapons, but not the coveted nuclear ones that were the supposed reason for attacking Iraq again. |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| i think the best punishment would be to keep ol' dear leader protected in a cell for a few years with full media access while the north gets used to its new-found freedom to information and then just let him free within his own borders. |
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Squire

Joined: 26 Sep 2010 Location: Jeollanam-do
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
I was just suggesting that they would be better off as a Chinese province under the direct control of Beijing than under the misguided direction of another US led puppet government.
They certainly wouldn't be any worse off if that were the case and if the current (and recent past) US puppet governments are any indication becoming a Chinese province would be a better choice (Hong Kong and Macau haven't done badly under Chinese rule). Just make N.Korea another SAR of China.
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What's to say the Chinese government wouldn't be misguided too? I agree that standards of living in North Korea would be better under Chinese rule, but not better than US rule after 5-10 years or so. Eventually NK would probably have a democratically elected government, free speech and their own sovereignty if the US installed an administration. As a part of China it would have none of these things |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| isisaredead wrote: |
| Squire wrote: |
| isisaredead wrote: |
| Squire wrote: |
| Wow, wooden scaffolding. I look forward to the day these people are liberated. I'd love to see Kim Jong Il tried and hanged like Saddam |
american, i presume? |
No, and I take it from your response you feel the North Korean people are better off under Kim Jong Il than they would be under an American puppet government? |
i just assumed you were an american judging from your bloodlust.
no other nation gets such indignant bloodlust for killing people than americans seem to. the reaction to bin laden's death was barbaric.
but, as you said, you're not american. so, there ya go.
my underlying point was, why would you want to kill someone, even if they are a pretty horrific leader? besides, the north korea of today is not the same place it was twenty years ago.
taking someone to an international court to recognise their crimes in a logical, cold mindset is what civilisation is all about. hanging them after the trial is not. |
It's not bloodlust, it's a logical progression of thought.
Follow:
North Korea is in horrible shape right now.
Kim Jeong Il (and his father) are responsible for the current condition of NK.
Many people are starving to death as a result of the regime.
KJI and co. are therefore responsible for a large body count.
People who are responsible for large body counts are constituted as war criminals and face very severe punishment.
I believe we can all agree on those basic points. The only argument is what to do with a war criminal, and many countries (not just the US), capital punishment is not unheard of.
Please take your racist nonsense elsewhere.
| ttompatz wrote: |
If that is the benchmark of a current generation of "American puppet government" brought to power by an American supported and led regime change then N.Korea is better off starving in the dark than the US alternative (where starving in the dark is only 1 of many additional hazards brought to the country by US led regime change).
The US would be better off taking a look inside their borders (where the numbers of victims of violent crime per capita approximate the numbers of starving people in N.Korea) before they try to fix the ailments of the world. |
Couldn't disagree more. The main benefit of a "puppet regime" is that there is room for growth. NK has stayed about the same for a long time, and it seems unlikely that conditions and rights will improve anytime soon. We've seen cases of a puppet government coming in as a temporary measure, where later on countries are able to take care of themselves and become prosperous.
As for crime and suffering, you might want to total the starving + people gone missing or put into labor camps. And what value do we put on personal freedoms in this equation? |
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Squire

Joined: 26 Sep 2010 Location: Jeollanam-do
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| oldtrafford wrote: |
Trying telling that to the Russians, you came in late to claim spoils that didn't belong to you. Russia rightly felt avenged with broken promises, and 30 million men dead.
Iraq has a far brighter future, hahahahahhahahahahhahahahaah!! You Yanks need to look at your history books. Both the French and the British paid the price last century, thy country will suffer the same, along with thy puppy dog biatch, Britain. I'm British by the way!!
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I'm not American, I'm British. The difference is I'm not so anti western I'll sit and claim countries like China and North Korea have some sort of moral high ground over the west. The Americans were very late in helping out during the war and they certainly didn't step in and 'win the war' like a lot of them claim, but at least they did help out in the end
| jvalmer wrote: |
| Squire wrote: |
| During the 90s weapons inspectors found and destroyed a lot of WMDs. |
They found Chemical weapons, but not the coveted nuclear ones that were the supposed reason for attacking Iraq again. |
No, they didn't find nuclear weapons but I'm pretty sure they found facilities (or facilities under construction) to produce nukes. It wasn't a secret that nuclear weapons were what Saddam was aiming for |
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oldtrafford
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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I personally, would much rather see the North "helped" by the US than left in the state it is currently in. Heck, ideally, I[b]'d like to see the South take over the North.
One thing we're all forgetting though is that the DPRK is an information black hole. We can talk about how Iraq is worse, or Afghanistan is deadlier, but do we really know?
I'm guessing that no one on this forum has ever spent extensive time in the DPRK, and so, and claims about life there are... Kind of shots in the dark.
[/b]
Won't happen Captain, the South Korean government saw what happened to West Germany when it was reunited with its brother, the economy crashed!!
Tom's point about the North Koreans coming under the guise of the Chinese is a valid one, ideology being some what similiar, cough, cough. However, I don't see this ravaged nation being 'built up.' Likewise Captain, we've never met but I do feel I'd enjoy having a beer in your company.  |
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oldtrafford
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not American, I'm British. The difference is I'm not so anti western I'll sit and claim countries like China and North Korea have some sort of moral high ground over the west. The Americans were very late in helping out during the war and they certainly didn't step in and 'win the war' like a lot of them claim, but at least they did help out in the end
Not anti western, oh dare you old boy, I'm proud of our nation who fought against Nazism. Not so proud over the Falklands though. Am I still anti British?!!  |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010 Location: London
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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Why would the north become a US puppet state, in any future scenario is that likely to happen? Surely if anything happens that involves US tanks rolling through Pyongyang the South would be in the driving seat.
Also in the context of East Asia US and UK supported countries have a good track record Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, S Korea, Japan.
If the US and UK were able to mould Iraq and Afghanistan exactly as they want, with all the investment and trade opportunities, then those states would be far better than they were under Saddam Hussein and the Taliban. The only reason they are struggling is because they are losing the military struggle. Although in truth the only losers will be the people themselves if the 'insurgents' take power.
@Oldtrafford
Yeah the Soviets also had an alliance with Hitler and were happy to divide Eastern Europe with him. They also supplied the Nazis with resources such as aviation fuel which was used to bomb British cities. Plus the Russians are the ones that gave Kim il-Sung North Korea, in a matter of months they had arranged for the smearing of a genuine local war hero. All so that they could place their man in Pyongyang, a man who had spent so little time in Korea that he had to have lessons to brush up his Korean. |
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Squire

Joined: 26 Sep 2010 Location: Jeollanam-do
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| oldtrafford wrote: |
I'm not American, I'm British. The difference is I'm not so anti western I'll sit and claim countries like China and North Korea have some sort of moral high ground over the west. The Americans were very late in helping out during the war and they certainly didn't step in and 'win the war' like a lot of them claim, but at least they did help out in the end
Not anti western, oh dare you old boy, I'm proud of our nation who fought against Nazism. Not so proud over the Falklands though. Am I still anti British?!!  |
The people of the Falklands have always voted to remain a part of the British Commonwealth. Of course, if you support China annexing North Korea then why shouldn't the Falklands be taken over by Argentina too? Are interventions fine as long as they are done by fascist states like 80s Argentina or countries with 'questionable' human rights like China?
| Quote: |
| Tom's point about the North Koreans coming under the guise of the Chinese is a valid one, ideology being some what similiar, cough, cough. However, I don't see this ravaged nation being 'built up.' Likewise Captain, we've never met but I do feel I'd enjoy having a beer in your company. |
It sounds like you've already started |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| oldtrafford wrote: |
Not anti western, oh dare you old boy, I'm proud of our nation who fought against Nazism. Not so proud over the Falklands though. Am I still anti British?!!  |
You sound rather anti western to me. Also, learn to quote. Your posts resemble your opinions: messy and confusing. |
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ttompatz

Joined: 05 Sep 2005 Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Squire wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
I was just suggesting that they would be better off as a Chinese province under the direct control of Beijing than under the misguided direction of another US led puppet government.
They certainly wouldn't be any worse off if that were the case and if the current (and recent past) US puppet governments are any indication becoming a Chinese province would be a better choice (Hong Kong and Macau haven't done badly under Chinese rule). Just make N.Korea another SAR of China.
. |
What's to say the Chinese government wouldn't be misguided too? I agree that standards of living in North Korea would be better under Chinese rule, but not better than US rule after 5-10 years or so. Eventually NK would probably have a democratically elected government, free speech and their own sovereignty if the US installed an administration. As a part of China it would have none of these things |
Democratically elected government (like Bush vs Gore), free speech (but lose the right of habeas corpus), and sovereignty (like Pakistan when the US unilaterally invaded and committed heinous acts of kidnap and murder).
Oh, perhaps you meant like the Philippines? US ruled for 50 years. US controlled by strong-man (Marcos) for 21 more. Democracy happens when the US supported dictator is whisked away by US military transport to Hawaii to protect him from a popular uprising and they are now, 30 years on, a rich and prosperous country?
Somehow I don't see HK and Macau as suffering too much under their misguided Chinese government control. They are certainly no worse off than they were under the control of their respective colonial masters (UK and Portugal) and their economies are certainly in much better shape than the US (as is China's).
The mean streets of Beijing certainly aren't any worse than New York, Detroit or Phoenix (where I lived and worked for a decade). I'm certainly not afraid to walk around in Beijing, Shanghai or HK after dark. I wouldn't step foot outside, alone in any American inner city.
Sorry, I can't buy the "US knows best" for this one. Their model is broken, their history is littered with international failures when they meddle in other countries and the people ALWAYS suffer for it.
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Squire

Joined: 26 Sep 2010 Location: Jeollanam-do
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Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
Somehow I don't see HK and Macau as suffering too much under their misguided Chinese government control. They are certainly no worse off than they were under the control of their respective colonial masters (UK and Portugal) and their economies are certainly in much better shape than the US (as is China's).
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It's almost 5 so I have to go, but China's economy is better than the US's? The average person in America is much better off than the average Chinese. China's economy is perhaps going in a better direction but I hardly think it is a better place to live |
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cwflaneur
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
| Squire wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
I was just suggesting that they would be better off as a Chinese province under the direct control of Beijing than under the misguided direction of another US led puppet government.
They certainly wouldn't be any worse off if that were the case and if the current (and recent past) US puppet governments are any indication becoming a Chinese province would be a better choice (Hong Kong and Macau haven't done badly under Chinese rule). Just make N.Korea another SAR of China.
. |
What's to say the Chinese government wouldn't be misguided too? I agree that standards of living in North Korea would be better under Chinese rule, but not better than US rule after 5-10 years or so. Eventually NK would probably have a democratically elected government, free speech and their own sovereignty if the US installed an administration. As a part of China it would have none of these things |
Democratically elected government (like Bush vs Gore), free speech (but lose the right of habeas corpus), and sovereignty (like Pakistan when the US unilaterally invaded and committed heinous acts of kidnap and murder).
Oh, perhaps you meant like the Philippines? US ruled for 50 years. US controlled by strong-man (Marcos) for 21 more. Democracy happens when the US supported dictator is whisked away by US military transport to Hawaii to protect him from a popular uprising and they are now, 30 years on, a rich and prosperous country?
Somehow I don't see HK and Macau as suffering too much under their misguided Chinese government control. They are certainly no worse off than they were under the control of their respective colonial masters (UK and Portugal) and their economies are certainly in much better shape than the US (as is China's).
The mean streets of Beijing certainly aren't any worse than New York, Detroit or Phoenix (where I lived and worked for a decade). I'm certainly not afraid to walk around in Beijing, Shanghai or HK after dark. I wouldn't step foot outside, alone in any American inner city.
Sorry, I can't buy the "US knows best" for this one. Their model is broken, their history is littered with international failures when they meddle in other countries and the people ALWAYS suffer for it.
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It's true, America had a rotten history of intervention in the 20th century. I would have to disagree with you on the assumption that North Korea is better off under Kim Jong Il, though. In this case we're looking at a slave state that couldn't be made any worse. I don't think the US would be attempting to withhold food from a desperate population, as their dictator is doing, for instance. The threat of nuclear weaponry would also be expunged. The bastard maintains power by maintaining a helpless population that is kept on the brink of starvation as a ploy for continually sucking in foreign aid. Haven't you read about what a 1984 replica that place is?
You can learn from history but it can also blind you to the present. |
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