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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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 Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| It's not hard to tell if a Korean is genuinely your friend or just using you as a token foreigner. What is hard is getting over the social awkwardness of not knowing how to interact or behave in Korean society. That's why having a common interest can go a long way to overcoming barriers. And also why it may just not be worth the hassle a lot of times. |
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PastorYoon
Joined: 25 Jun 2010
Location: Sea of Japan
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| What is hard is getting over the social awkwardness of not knowing how to interact or behave in Korean society. |
What makes it harder, is that if you try to fit in, they will put you down, shun you, or only accept you if you allow yourself to be insulted to your face. Remember to keep bowing and smiling though! If you don't, it will most likely cost you your job. |
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toonchoon
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:55 am Post subject: Re: dealing with korean life - mentality |
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| My gf is Korean, and I'm cool with some of her family members that I've met. Actually, cool with ALL fam members. Apart from that I find it very difficult to befriend Korean guys (I'm a guy) and very easy to befriend Korean women, who are so much more open minded and just impressed that a western guy would talk to them. Go figure, but Koreans don't "mingle" much outside of their social circles, and I'd say that Koreans (men especially) are socially awkward when it comes to communicating with foreigners. All good though... have to adjust to THEIR style. When in Korea... |
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rainism
Joined: 13 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:16 am Post subject: |
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actually being here as long as I've been, I now have a "pretty good idea" on how to behave in Korean society. The problem is I am completely UNinterested in behaving that way, especially so when going along with the Confucian hierarchical norms and being forced into groupthink or worse, group-do.
I don't want to be anyone's "hyung", I don't want to call anyone sunbae, nor noona, nor am I interested as serving as someone else's dongseng, much less calling anyone else dongseng, I just want to be rainism. Judge me on my character and personality and I'll judge you on yours.
I will say that Koreans do give foreigners a break/pass on such matters, generally speaking. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Basically everyone wants to have their cake and eat it to.
| Quote: |
| What makes it harder, is that if you try to fit in, they will put you down, shun you, or only accept you if you allow yourself to be insulted to your face. Remember to keep bowing and smiling though! If you don't, it will most likely cost you your job. |
Says the guy with the Cat eating cartoon as his avatar.....
Well the only way some waygooks will accept you is if you're cool with them insulting your friends and ancestral ethnicity to your face and listen to their rants about how Koreans are the biggest idiots on the planet and all a bunch of wife-beating drunks who scream about Dokdo.
Now do start to understand why people are "apologists"?
You bashers do the exact same thing as the people you hate! |
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PastorYoon
Joined: 25 Jun 2010
Location: Sea of Japan
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Basically everyone wants to have their cake and eat it to.
| pastoryoon wrote: |
| What makes it harder, is that if you try to fit in, they will put you down, shun you, or only accept you if you allow yourself to be insulted to your face. Remember to keep bowing and smiling though! If you don't, it will most likely cost you your job. |
Says the guy with the Cat eating cartoon as his avatar..... |
Actually, the cats are ordering 'dog' in my avatar.
| Steelrails wrote: |
Well the only way some waygooks will accept you is if you're cool with them insulting your friends and ancestral ethnicity to your face and listen to their rants about how Koreans are the biggest idiots on the planet and all a bunch of wife-beating drunks who scream about Dokdo.
Now do start to understand why people are "apologists"?
You bashers do the exact same thing as the people you hate! |
You're entitled to this opinion. Personally, I came into this country with a completely open mind, only to be verbally attacked countless times by tons of different Koreans. I was hated by Koreans the moment I set foot in this country. I might as well give them a reason. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Come on now Pastor..."hated by KOREANS the moment you set foot in Korea"?
Thats a bit much....
Also, giving them a reason is kind of making the issue worse that it is and probably creating all sorts of problems that were not there.
My two cents pal. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| PastorYoon wrote: |
| Personally, I came into this country with a completely open mind... |
The interesting thing is...MOST people come here with an open mind. Not many people would be willing go to a place where they knew they wouldn't be treated well - most have the expectation they will still be treated like average adult human beings when they arrive.
But then, time after time, among SO many non-locals you meet here, (the majority probably) something goes terribly wrong and attitudes change toward this place. It couldn't be that the attitudes change for no reason at all, and it doesn't happen overnight. So what goes wrong? It's a mix of reasons, but for many the change has to do with negative reactions with the locals. And depending on how bad the interactions are and how often, different people will deal with them in different ways.
So WHY stay? A mix of reasons as well; some get caught up in the perks of a good job or get in a relationship with a local and end up staying longer than they normally would, and they have to balance out the positives and negatives of the place. Many spiral into a cycle of cynicism that's hard to break out of. Others go the other way and rationalize it by ignoring the bad or apologizing for it.
But the fact is, this vibe of this place is just not for everyone , and the negative attitudes of many long term visitors show this. As someone said on here earlier, "Koreans just don't like foreigners", and while that's pretty simplistic, it is the crux of many of the problems here and it filters into the interactions with locals. This won't change anytime soon, if ever, but luckily they don't ALL dislike foreigners.
My attitude changes daily but generally I'm happy here. The key is finding your niche here and trying not to let the annoying stuff bug you too much because there's lots of perks too. If you can disregard the occasional dissing from the locals and recognize it as THEIR problem, you can find a sweet spot where you get to interact as much or as little as possible. That said, I really don't see how non-Koreans could live here long term and still maintain a healthy attitude and sense of self respect. Seems like it would wear you down after awhile. I guess it depends on the circumstances. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| PastorYoon wrote: |
| Personally, I came into this country with a completely open mind... |
The interesting thing is...MOST people come here with an open mind. Not many people would be willing go to a place where they knew they wouldn't be treated well - most have the expectation they will still be treated like average adult human beings when they arrive.
But then, time after time, among SO many non-locals you meet here, (the majority probably) something goes terribly wrong and attitudes change toward this place. It couldn't be that the attitudes change for no reason at all, and it doesn't happen overnight. So what goes wrong? It's a mix of reasons, but for many the change has to do with negative reactions with the locals... |
It seems the major reason is a bad job. I can't count the times when someone had a bad experience at their job and then expanded it into a blanket rant to cover the whole of Korea...pretty common here on Dave's.
Yeah some run into xenophobic locals and have a bad experience or two (and then the same blanket generalizations come out). And some (a very few) seem to have these experiences everywhere in Korea they go. (Interesting that although the only consistent factor is them, they are never at fault)...but that's a topic for another thread sometime.
And some come here having read too many horror stories on Dave's and and thus interpret any little issue as an attempt to get one over on them (which in some cases it may be) and get caught up in countless little power struggles. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| PastorYoon wrote: |
| Personally, I came into this country with a completely open mind... |
The interesting thing is...MOST people come here with an open mind. Not many people would be willing go to a place where they knew they wouldn't be treated well - most have the expectation they will still be treated like average adult human beings when they arrive.
But then, time after time, among SO many non-locals you meet here, (the majority probably) something goes terribly wrong and attitudes change toward this place. It couldn't be that the attitudes change for no reason at all, and it doesn't happen overnight. So what goes wrong? It's a mix of reasons, but for many the change has to do with negative reactions with the locals... |
It seems the major reason is a bad job. I can't count the times when someone had a bad experience at their job and then expanded it into a blanket rant to cover the whole of Korea...pretty common here on Dave's.
Yeah some run into xenophobic locals and have a bad experience or two (and then the same blanket generalizations come out). And some (a very few) seem to have these experiences everywhere in Korea they go. (Interesting that although the only consistent factor is them, they are never at fault)...but that's a topic for another thread sometime.
And some come here having read too many horror stories on Dave's and and thus interpret any little issue as an attempt to get one over on them (which in some cases it may be) and get caught up in countless little power struggles. |
Yeah, a bad job, manager, OR bad living situation would tend to taint everything else about the place no matter where you were. And there is a lot of that here for sure.
But one can't discount the negative interactions with locals either as this affects how one views them and how they fit into one's social life. Most people can detect when they are viewed with derision and treated condescendingly and this affects attitudes. And we aren't only talking about the clueless frat boy party types with crappy behavior, we are also talking about working professionals who come here and are treated the same way, not for something they did, but for who they are. For many westerners/Americans, that's a totally new phenomenon for them and it doesn't exactly go over well with most. (Although many Koreans experience similar things when they go abroad as well ..."How can they do that to me? I'm a KOREAN!" ...Uh, welcome to reality - nobody really gives a damn.)
But for foreigners here it only has to start with a few negative interactions to make an impression, and if they continue over time it just gets worse and their attitude helps shape their opinions. But even if many or most interactions are positive or neutral, people can still discern the generally vibe of a place and how they are viewed.
And due to the homogeneous nature of the place, this is one country where the blanket generalizations and broad brush strokes do tend to apply in many cases. This is why from job to job, from bar table to bar table, you can hear so many of the SAME complaints over and over again. But hey, what can you do - it's a different country and it's not going to change much, so one's just got to balance things and carve out their own niche, adjust their attitude, or eventually leave, whichever suits them.
One thing that helps me is to try and concentrate on the good things. So you get mocked or get the stink eye from some random haters but immediately around the next corner you sit on a bench and an ajumma shares some food with you for no reason at all. It's hard to totally hate on a place when something like that happens to balance it all out. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| PastorYoon wrote: |
| Personally, I came into this country with a completely open mind... |
The interesting thing is...MOST people come here with an open mind. Not many people would be willing go to a place where they knew they wouldn't be treated well - most have the expectation they will still be treated like average adult human beings when they arrive.
But then, time after time, among SO many non-locals you meet here, (the majority probably) something goes terribly wrong and attitudes change toward this place. It couldn't be that the attitudes change for no reason at all, and it doesn't happen overnight. So what goes wrong? It's a mix of reasons, but for many the change has to do with negative reactions with the locals... |
It seems the major reason is a bad job. I can't count the times when someone had a bad experience at their job and then expanded it into a blanket rant to cover the whole of Korea...pretty common here on Dave's.
Yeah some run into xenophobic locals and have a bad experience or two (and then the same blanket generalizations come out). And some (a very few) seem to have these experiences everywhere in Korea they go. (Interesting that although the only consistent factor is them, they are never at fault)...but that's a topic for another thread sometime.
And some come here having read too many horror stories on Dave's and and thus interpret any little issue as an attempt to get one over on them (which in some cases it may be) and get caught up in countless little power struggles. |
Yeah, a bad job, manager, OR bad living situation would tend to taint everything else about the place no matter where you were. And there is a lot of that here for sure.
But one can't discount the negative interactions with locals either as this affects how one views them and how they fit into one's social life. Most people can detect when they are viewed with derision and treated condescendingly and this affects attitudes. And we aren't only talking about the clueless frat boy party types with crappy behavior, we are also talking about working professionals who come here and are treated the same way, not for something they did, but for who they are. For many westerners/Americans, that's a totally new phenomenon for them and it doesn't exactly go over well with most. (Although many Koreans experience similar things when they go abroad as well ..."How can they do that to me? I'm a KOREAN!" ...Uh, welcome to reality - nobody really gives a damn.)
But for foreigners here it only has to start with a few negative interactions to make an impression, and if they continue over time it just gets worse and their attitude helps shape their opinions. But even if many or most interactions are positive or neutral, people can still discern the generally vibe of a place and how they are viewed.
And due to the homogeneous nature of the place, this is one country where the blanket generalizations and broad brush strokes do tend to apply in many cases. This is why from job to job, from bar table to bar table, you can hear so many of the SAME complaints over and over again. But hey, what can you do - it's a different country and it's not going to change much, so one's just got to balance things and carve out their own niche, adjust their attitude, or eventually leave, whichever suits them.
One thing that helps me is to try and concentrate on the good things. So you get mocked or get the stink eye from some random haters but immediately around the next corner you sit on a bench and an ajumma shares some food with you for no reason at all. It's hard to totally hate on a place when something like that happens to balance it all out. |
Oh I see what you are saying for sure. There are some racist idiots here no doubt about that. But I still don't think that this discounts the overwhelming positive experiences that I and others here have had. For example I am rarely bothered on the street by haters or anyone else...and I've lived in Korea for ten years. In fact the only time I can think of an unprovoked attack was when someone threw a water bottle at me out of a car when I was just walking down the street minding my own business. But then again that happened back home once as well...only it was a beer bottle. And just as I don't characterize all Canadians as drunken beer-bottle throwing loons, neither do I characterize all Koreans as drunken water-bottle throwing loons either.
Maybe I'm just lucky but I've had extremely few cases of "negative interaction with the locals." And over time my Korean language skills developed enough to pick out what Koreans are saying for the most part in the last few years and I can think of only about 3 cases where I've heard negative yapping about foreigners from Koreans (at least in my earshot). And it's not just me saying this.
At my last job the Korean head teacher mentioned (in Korean) to another teacher that I seemed "very Korean". Then again since she was married to a foreigner I'm not so sure that was a compliment...The point being that getting along with and blending in with the locals as much as possible does facilitate one's stay...and no it doesn't mean compromising your values or morals or what ever the fashionable claim of the week is on Dave's. Pick your battles wisely.
One
Getting back to the negative impressions part of your post for a moment here you wrote:
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| "But for foreigners here it only has to start with a few negative interactions to make an impression, and if they continue over time it just gets worse..." |
(bolding mine)
Okay. Now replace "foreigners" with "Koreans" and consider that the U.S military has had a presence here for over 50 years and there's been a fair number of incidents that cast them (either unfairly or fairly) in a bad light.
English teachers haven't been here that long...but there's still been a spotlight shone on them and while most are decent people there's enough bad apples to create a negative impression. Heck we've had people bragging about how they do a bad job and take off every single sick day that they get in their contract whether they are sick or not.
For example GEPIK did not have a deposit policy in its first year. But enough people trashed their apartments so it created one. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Good points made by Mix and Urban.
Its not all one sided as you guys are showing. |
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