Site Search:
 
Speak Korean Now!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Why Liberals are More Intelligent than Conservatives
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
Thoose below minimum wage jobs are already being filled by an illegal work force, and it's been shown that when available to Americans they won't take them.


Statement against interest, Leon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Leon wrote:
Thoose below minimum wage jobs are already being filled by an illegal work force, and it's been shown that when available to Americans they won't take them.


Statement against interest, Leon.


Not really. Americans aren't willing to work the types of jobs that pay below the minimum wage. Mexicans, or other illegals are willing to. The below minimum wage jobs already exisit, and it's not affecting American unemployment.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
Of course it has some effect on unemployment. I never argued otherwise. It's just that I believe that when weighed overall it provides more good than bad.

Well, you could believe the moon is made of cheese, and I wouldn't hold it against you; but the point of a debate is to make a convincing case... Anyway, I simply don't see how government enforced scarcity causing increased unemployment can possibly be a "good thing"... It makes no sense. Why should some people deserve to earn more at the expense of others?

Quote:
I will admit that I don't know that much about unions, but how does a libertarian feel about them? I feel that workers should have the right to form them, and I can't imagine how a libertarian could justify banning them. As to unemployment it is obviously, at some level, a part of the economy. Some people change jobs, can't work for whatever reason, there isn't enough jobs in their area, or their field, etc.

Of course people should be allowed to form unions for voluntary collective bargaining. But forcing people to pay union fees is akin to extortion. And using violence or intimidation to prevent others from stepping in to do the same job at a lower wage is abhorrent and justifiably illegal. Beyond that I have nothing but contempt for most unions, which are little more than protection rackets that cause vast numbers of people to go without work, so others with a self-righteous sense of entitlement can do better for themselves.

Quote:
I know about the real unemployment rate, but couldn't remember the figure so I went with the 4% one. A few extra dollars when the pay is that low isn't just a few extra dollars.

You're getting paid those extra dollars at the expense of other people having jobs. It also cascades through the economy, since unemployment affects everyone. In welfare societies the unemployed receive money from the government, which raises taxes, and government deficit spending causes inflation (which makes the low wages we're talking about go much less far than they would otherwise, and causes peoples' savings to shrivel up).

Quote:
The solution is third world labor for third world wages? That's the massive prosperity you were talking about?

It's all relative. People here get paid less, but most things are much cheaper. Anyway, Thailand is far from perfect, but it's obvious to see how the economy grows much faster when everyone is gainfully employed.

Quote:
Many of thoose jobs aren't available in the states. As cheap as human labor is, it's cheaper to automate it. No matter how low American jobs pay, third world workers will work for less. As technology advances there will be less need for every person to be a producer.

In a more socialist-type society where fewer people had private property, they would run the risk of being replaced by machines (and left to starve). But in a free market system where everyone owns their own property, they could always trade amongst themselves. Technology and automation make goods cheaper over time, and basically equates to less work and more income for everyone. It is a decidedly good thing (and the only reason that inflation hasn't killed us all already)... But putting technology to work for you is not a notion exclusive to mega-corporations; it applies to everyone.

Anyway, supposing I indulged the notion that robots could some day literally end up performing every function in society - then humans could just sit back and do nothing and live in a superabundant cornucopia society...

Quote:
Where are the jobs that the engines of creation, thoose mighty mighty industralists that don't exisit anymore, are supposed to be creating for the unwashed masses? There is not enough demand in the labor market as it is.

This is a result of government policy. The US government even gives tax incentives for companies to move offshore.


Last edited by visitorq on Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
Kuros wrote:
Leon wrote:
Thoose below minimum wage jobs are already being filled by an illegal work force, and it's been shown that when available to Americans they won't take them.


Statement against interest, Leon.


Not really. Americans aren't willing to work the types of jobs that pay below the minimum wage. Mexicans, or other illegals are willing to. The below minimum wage jobs already exisit, and it's not affecting American unemployment.


It seems that, like the gov't, you have it all worked out neatly. Far be it from me to bore you with specific cases or complications.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Leon wrote:
Kuros wrote:
Leon wrote:
Thoose below minimum wage jobs are already being filled by an illegal work force, and it's been shown that when available to Americans they won't take them.


Statement against interest, Leon.


Not really. Americans aren't willing to work the types of jobs that pay below the minimum wage. Mexicans, or other illegals are willing to. The below minimum wage jobs already exisit, and it's not affecting American unemployment.


It seems that, like the gov't, you have it all worked out neatly. Far be it from me to bore you with specific cases or complications.


Please, feel free to bore me. Please don't compare me to the government, I'd like to at least think that I'm more competent than that. Of course there are complications to everything. Would some AMericans work for ultra low wages, sure. Is that a good thing, I can't imagine that it is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd just like to chime in and say that the OP's article is wrong. Cross-tribal welfare does occur (probably most of the time.) Potlatches would be a great example (Northwest Coast of North America).

IMO, the entire article is flawed and must be a joke of some kind.

Another major flaw would be that political identity is not static but dynamic and many people experience changes in political thought and identity throughout their lifetime.

Even the concept of Liberalism and Conservatism are basically relative terms. Liberal to what. Conservative to what.

It seems to me that the article was just a gernade (sp?) to start people fighting for no particular reason.

Now, I've heard Bill Clinton give a speach in which he described Conservatives as "true believers" and Liberals as people who have "experienced doubt." Now that, to me, is a little more interesting but still...why put people in such categories?

Now, go on, enjoy your flame wars and strawman arguments...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
Another major flaw would be that political identity is not static but dynamic and many people experience changes in political thought and identity throughout their lifetime.

Good point.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rambler



Joined: 18 Jun 2011

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That dude visitorq is so sharp.

Masters in poly sci?

That avatar pic is so sweet, too.

What is the implication?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jaykimf



Joined: 24 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Alan B. Krueger, a Princeton University professor who recently served as chief economist for the United States Treasury, was tapped on Monday by President Obama to head the Council of Economic Advisers. ...He is perhaps best known for his research on the minimum wage, in which he used an empirical experiment to determine that raising the minimum wage did not reduce employment.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/30/business/krueger-chosen-to-lead-economic-council.html?hp
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaykimf wrote:
Quote:
Alan B. Krueger, a Princeton University professor who recently served as chief economist for the United States Treasury, was tapped on Monday by President Obama to head the Council of Economic Advisers. ...He is perhaps best known for his research on the minimum wage, in which he used an empirical experiment to determine that raising the minimum wage did not reduce employment.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/30/business/krueger-chosen-to-lead-economic-council.html?hp


Could it be? He's not a bankster. And he's a labor expert.

There's only one problem here, but its not a red flag: he supported cap-and-trade (instead of carbon tax).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Weigookin74



Joined: 26 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with American Conservatives and American Liberals are that you're both crazy! At least Canadian Conservatives and Liberals are capable of pragmatism and common sense. Compromise is not a dirty word in our country. You should read some of our history. We faced a debt crises like you do today back in the 1990's. Our credit rating was also downgraded. We had a Liberal government (IE Left Wing) who saw the light and that things couldn't continue. They made tough choices to balance the budget. (IE Deep Cuts). We recently had a Conservative government who agree to some stimulus spending during the recession. (Though it was less per capita than your own.) We fared better in this recession better than other Western countries because of the tough choices we made in the 1990's. We ran surpluses for 13 years and payed on our national debt every year until the Recession struck. But you Americans are both so locked into your positions. You need to step back from your own positions and look at the other sides point of view. Then reach some kind of reasonable consensus.

For the record we had previously had high unemployment along with the hefty government spending and high taxes. Guess what? Average joes like me didn't really benefit too much except for a kick in the teeth when trying to find a job. No one was hiring. After balancing thebudget and a few years later cutting our tax rates, our economy began to grow and unemployment rates started coming down. It was much easier to get a job. We were not immune to resession but got off much more easily. I believe our nationwide unemployment is still too high at 7 per cent. But there are provinces and cities at 4 or 5 per cent.

I would both FOX News and MSNBC, along with lobbyists, big labor, and special interest groups are good at feuling the flames. Cut off their funding and campaign donations. Ban them from Washington city limits. Change the channel and you should be good to go. Maybe common sense will return. Also, do yourself a real favor. Stop assuming that people who have a different opinion than you are of sub par intelligence. Only assume that if they really are dumb. IE 1 plus 1 is 3. Ok? Change your perspective and come out of your ideological cocoons!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weigookin74 wrote:
The problem with American Conservatives and American Liberals are that you're both crazy! At least Canadian Conservatives and Liberals are capable of pragmatism and common sense. Compromise is not a dirty word in our country. You should read some of our history . . .


You know, in Canada, eh . .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Weigookin74 wrote:
The problem with American Conservatives and American Liberals are that you're both crazy! At least Canadian Conservatives and Liberals are capable of pragmatism and common sense. Compromise is not a dirty word in our country. You should read some of our history . . .


You know, in Canada, eh . .

Yeah, where would Canada and its economy be without the vast resources (esp. oil and gas) they ship south of the border?... They've got like, 30 million people and the US accounts for around 80% of their trade. Sounds pretty easy to me...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
Kuros wrote:
Weigookin74 wrote:
The problem with American Conservatives and American Liberals are that you're both crazy! At least Canadian Conservatives and Liberals are capable of pragmatism and common sense. Compromise is not a dirty word in our country. You should read some of our history . . .


You know, in Canada, eh . .

Yeah, where would Canada and its economy be without the vast resources (esp. oil and gas) they ship south of the border?... They've got like, 30 million people and the US accounts for around 80% of their trade. Sounds pretty easy to me...


I applaud Canada's success. Its just Canadian condescension that bothers me.

Weigookin74 could've very easily made about the same point without mentioning "In Canada . . ." a dozen times.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
I applaud Canada's success. Its just Canadian condescension that bothers me.

Ditto. I generally like Canada, when they're not lecturing Americans on how much better our country would be if we would only become more socialist like them...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 4 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International