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Ribena
Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Location: UK
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 Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| tideout wrote: |
I don't know if it's true but I've been told by a Korean friend that western gay mannerisms are hardly a secret in Korean society - and you can be discriminated against for it. There were a fair number of guys at a recent EPIK training that seemed gay based on the way they interacted with others or in a couple of cases, fairly direct statements. My point is that not making a direct statement or limiting who you disclose to ain't gonna cover all the bases for some. It's a shame. It's discrimination - but that's the way it is here I'm afraid. Korea is not an open minded society on certain subjects and I think it's good for people to be honest about what they're likely to encounter.
Before I get blasted here - I'm trying to be direct enough to describe how some people interact socially while not stereotyping people. No offense intended.
No disagreement from me on your points btw. |
Most people think they "know" who is gay based on mannerism but there are alot of gay people who don't act camp and there smart asses are going miss out on discriminating against them.
I'm not worried about being spotting me because I'm not a camp gay man.
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Maybe less than a happy medium. A couple gay friends here and there but I do enjoy gay nightlife every once in a while. The reason I initially only considered Seoul is because the countries I have lived in the past, you either go to 'underground' temporary gay venues for nightlife in the capital/largest city...or you don't participate at all and remain completely closeted.
I'm slowly beginning to think maybe this is not the case for South Korea. |
Just out of curiosity what countries did you visit? From what I've gathered, the the answer you'll get from straight posters are more gloomy than what you'll get from gay posters. I've gathered that most of the venues are stable and not subject to police raids as in some other countries. But considering you could easily lose your job you have to decide if its worth the risk to participate. Although I guess losing a job isn't as bad as being arrested or being subject to a death penalty as in some countries (although I can't imagine that any country would go down that road with a Westerner - I imagine they would probably just be deported from the country.) |
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tideout
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:42 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Ribena"]
Last edited by tideout on Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ribena
Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| Points well taken. My guess is you'd have few problems then. |
Well unless you as camp as you are talking about, all you need to do is keep quiet at all times. Its up to different people to decide if that something they are wiling to do. I've done it plenty of times so it doesn't bother me nor does a lack of gay clubs. Some people feel its important to be out and proud which I can understand that. Most people take the middle line in life but I think its important to know how out you can be in a situation or who it is appropriate to trust with that information especially in a foreign country. But you know what they say better safe than sorry. Don't go to places where you might be seen or tell non Westerners - that would be the safest option. I don't tend to tell people unless I know them well. |
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allan of asia
Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Location: Here, there, everywhere
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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i agree on the downlow at work thing, but otherwise I have had no problems at all in Korea.
My best friend is a straight Korean man who is not bothered about it at all other than some odd questions which some of the hardcore gay community would most likely be offended by, but I just put it down to his sheltered Korean upbringing - its not nasty just genuinely curious questioning. Even his family know my "lifestyle choices" and they arent bothered either.
Korean bfs on the other hand are much more guarded about who they tell...for good reason.
In Seoul you will be fine - you can be as gay involved as you want to be. For me, I dont mind hanging out on the hill etc, but my friends are about 70% not gay and that suits me fine! People are people!
PS - homosexuality is not illegal in Korea so you cannot be arrested or anything , although social stigma often remains. |
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Ribena
Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| allan of asia wrote: |
| PS - homosexuality is not illegal in Korea so you cannot be arrested or anything , although social stigma often remains. |
Yes but you could be fired from your job thought which is pretty problematic if you are living in a foreign country. OP should probably still be careful who he tells considering he doesn't know if the other person recognises the need to keep it on the downlow. I think its wise not to share too much information with people unless you know them really well.
Although OP doesn't seem like he is trying to date while there so he'd probably be able to make some ex-pat gay friends there and have no problems. |
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coetivy89
Joined: 07 May 2011
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:22 am Post subject: |
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Just tell the recruiter that you will only accept a job in Seoul (and be aware that all areas of Seoul are not created equal: you want to be in the Yongsan area where most gay bars are). When it comes to talking to your employer, DADT.
Personally, I think people exaggerate the homophobia here. I don't know what it's like for ethnic Koreans, but as far as foreigners go, they see us all as exactly that: foreign.
As a disclaimer, I work in Gangnam. Good luck. PM me with any questions. |
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Ribena
Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| coetivy89 wrote: |
Just tell the recruiter that you will only accept a job in Seoul (and be aware that all areas of Seoul are not created equal: you want to be in the Yongsan area where most gay bars are). When it comes to talking to your employer, DADT.
Personally, I think people exaggerate the homophobia here. I don't know what it's like for ethnic Koreans, but as far as foreigners go, they see us all as exactly that: foreign.
As a disclaimer, I work in Gangnam. Good luck. PM me with any questions. |
Well there are lots of forms of homophobia some are less of a issue that others. Christians nutbags on the tv talking about gay people going to hell can just be laughed off. It's when it directly effects you through losing your job that its a problem. The best way to avoid homophobia directed at you is avoid telling people. In your home country its easier to judge if its appropriate to tell someone because you know the culture and the people but in a foreign country its much more difficult to guage what their reaction will be. I'd don't know how you could know someone well enough to come out to them when you are in a foreign country. If the culture is different, surely its appropriate to behave accordingly in regards to your sexuality. |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:51 am Post subject: Re: Sexual Orientation & Jobs in Seoul |
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| seoulsurvivor8 wrote: |
Hi everyone! (First post! Hopefully in the right forum.)
So I've been looking at teaching English in Korea for a couple weeks now and I'm still in the beginning phases of the process (researching, contacting recruiters, researching, applying to individual schools, researching, researching, etc).
A big concern for me is as follows:
I see that most applicants to jobs have their hearts set on Seoul. I also see that, for me personally, I have had a difficult time socially and even psychologically when living in foreign places that are as conservative as (or maybe more than) Korea due to sexual orientation. Because of that I have learned that it is better for me to be in places where I have the opportunity to network with other GLBT individuals as a social outlet (I'm not political or vocal about the issue, I just mean in terms of socialization). This translates to Seoul being a good location for me (as far as I know).
How should I handle the application process with this in mind? I understand that there is nothing a recruiter can do in terms of where jobs are open, however, should I consider mentioning my personal reason for wanting to be specifically in Seoul?
Finally, does anyone know if given my situation there are other cities near or around Seoul where I could live/work but still have decent access to what Seoul offers in terms of touching base with other GLBTQ individuals?
Any thoughts much appreciated. Thanks  |
Not sure why it would even come up in the interview process. And there is a GLTB community here. Seoul's subway system is pretty extensive. You don't have to be in the center of Seoul to be able to get there easily.
But, yeah, I would give a different reason for wanting to be in Seoul. I don't how much it would be a strike against you. It shouldn't be, but on the other hand, I didn't advertise that I was straight and wanted to be in Seoul so I could network with the Korean girls...nor did I say that I had to be near Seoul so I could be near a chiropractor (the latter being the only reason I chose Seoul).
You can modify your reason and it would be perfectly fine. Like, you can take this part of what you said, "...a difficult time socially and even psychologically when living in foreign places..." and there you have the heart of your reason for wanting to be in the big city. You're not expecting a GLTB community out in the sticks, right? Most of us feel more comfortable being in (or at least near) the city when we live abroad. I don't think recruiters or schools are going to question you in depth for your "real" reasons for wanting to be in Seoul.
Anyway, that's my take. |
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Ribena
Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Like, you can take this part of what you said, "...a difficult time socially and even psychologically when living in foreign places..." and there you have the heart of your reason for wanting to be in the big city. |
Wouldn't saying you have a difficult time living in a foreign country be strike against you with a recruiter, considering you are applying for a job in a foreign country. |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| Ribena wrote: |
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| Like, you can take this part of what you said, "...a difficult time socially and even psychologically when living in foreign places..." and there you have the heart of your reason for wanting to be in the big city. |
Wouldn't saying you have a difficult time living in a foreign country be strike against you with a recruiter, considering you are applying for a job in a foreign country. |
 ha ha! Maybe. I didn't mean to say that exactly. Just for the OP to keep that idea in mind when giving his reason.
My main point is that it's not really necessary for giving a reason for wanting to be in Seoul. Ultimately, whatever reasons we have for wanting to live in a big city overseas falls under the same basic reason: it's more comfortable. |
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Ribena
Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| isitts wrote: |
| Ribena wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Like, you can take this part of what you said, "...a difficult time socially and even psychologically when living in foreign places..." and there you have the heart of your reason for wanting to be in the big city. |
Wouldn't saying you have a difficult time living in a foreign country be strike against you with a recruiter, considering you are applying for a job in a foreign country. |
ha ha! Maybe. I didn't mean to say that exactly. Just for the OP to keep that idea in mind when giving his reason.
My main point is that it's not really necessary for giving a reason for wanting to be in Seoul. Ultimately, whatever reasons we have for wanting to live in a big city overseas falls under the same basic reason: it's more comfortable. |
Yeah I mean I don't suppose they care about your reasons or take them into account. I mean who else actually mentioned their sexuality when looking for a job. I know in the UK there are those equal opportunity forms but I refused to answer any of their questions about sexuality, race, gender(they ask if you are trans, btw), its not as if they need to know that kind of stuff. Why make life difficult for yourself but giving away that information and putting employers etc in an awkward position. Oh and don't let your co-workers link you on facebook if gay friends etc might mention something unsuitable. |
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politica
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Location: Suwon-si
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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I get kind of annoyed at people who seem to think that Korea is comparable to Turkmenistan for gays.
Yes, Korea is conservative. Yes, it is still somewhat rare for a Korean to be totally "out." However . . .
There are gay communities and gay bars in all of the major cities (there are 20+ gay bars in Seoul alone, plus 6 or so lesbian bars). Even if you end up in middle-of-nowhere rural Korea, you shouldn't be more than a 1-2 hour bus ride from a gay scene.
My advice:
-Don't tell your boss
-Don't tell your students
-Don't tell students' parents
-Don't tell your Korean coworkers
(the reason for all of the above is because sexual orientation is not part of the discrimination clause here- so you could technically lose your job)
-Don't tell your recruiter
-Be careful about telling your foreign coworkers (I'm out to all of mine, but I went through a little "trial" period to see if I could trust them)
-Make sure your facebook and anything else online is private
-Check out stuff online (I would give you more specifics, but I only really know lesbo stuff). Find a group. Make friends. Have fun  |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Sexual Orientation & Jobs in Seoul |
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| seoulsurvivor8 wrote: |
Hi everyone! (First post! Hopefully in the right forum.)
So I've been looking at teaching English in Korea for a couple weeks now and I'm still in the beginning phases of the process (researching, contacting recruiters, researching, applying to individual schools, researching, researching, etc).
A big concern for me is as follows:
I see that most applicants to jobs have their hearts set on Seoul. I also see that, for me personally, I have had a difficult time socially and even psychologically when living in foreign places that are as conservative as (or maybe more than) Korea due to sexual orientation. Because of that I have learned that it is better for me to be in places where I have the opportunity to network with other GLBT individuals as a social outlet (I'm not political or vocal about the issue, I just mean in terms of socialization). This translates to Seoul being a good location for me (as far as I know).
How should I handle the application process with this in mind? I understand that there is nothing a recruiter can do in terms of where jobs are open, however, should I consider mentioning my personal reason for wanting to be specifically in Seoul?
Finally, does anyone know if given my situation there are other cities near or around Seoul where I could live/work but still have decent access to what Seoul offers in terms of touching base with other GLBTQ individuals?
Any thoughts much appreciated. Thanks |
Though I am not for the old policy of "Don't ask, don't tell" because gay people were expelled from the military, which was not Clinton's intention, I think that's what you should do in this case. Don't mention your sexual orientation and just say you want to be in Seoul because you have friends there, and you like big cities and want to be near Seoul. People don't need to know you're gay. In Korean culture, there is a concept called jung, which can't be translated into English. It can mean shared good-will, compassion, and it can't be something shared between homosexuals according to Korean society. There are definitely gay people in Seoul. There's no doubt about it, but people don't really advertise that they are because it's not accepted. Sometimes, we think we need to be honest about why we want things because we've been taught that honesty is the best policy. I remember a friend of mine telling me of someone who lost his job because he was gay. This was in Cheonan, which is outside of Seoul. |
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jurassic82
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Location: Somewhere!!!!
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sorry but this is a stupid thread. If you are gay or straight it doesn't matter. IF you are gay and a man, just don't come into work wearing a dress. Besides that it is fine. America, Europe, Australia, etc.... I don't ever imagine them asking any questions about your sexuality in a interview where ever you are. Keep in mind like what has been said earlier, Korea is a conservative country and if you are a man holding another man's hand then you might get stares.
Then again I see Korean women holding hands all the time here and they aren't gay. Also, the men here wear really tight clothing and skinny ties and nobody seems to think that is gay. I have a few gay expat friends in Korea and they have no problem. THis is not the middle east. Just have common sense and if you are a same sex couple keep some of PDA to a minimum in public places where some people might get offended. I would say this to straight people as well. Anyways, welcome to Korea and have a blast!!!! |
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Ribena
Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| jurassic82 wrote: |
| I'm sorry but this is a stupid thread. If you are gay or straight it doesn't matter. IF you are gay and a man, just don't come into work wearing a dress.Besides that it is fine. America, Europe, Australia, etc.... I don't ever imagine them asking any questions about your sexuality in a interview where ever you are. Keep in mind like what has been said earlier, Korea is a conservative country and if you are a man holding another man's hand then you might get stares. |
Well if there are people around who make comments like these there might be a problem. What gay man except Drag Queens would wear a dress to work, haven't meet a single one. I knew a straight goth guy who wore a leather skirt to work once thought.
| Quote: |
| Then again I see Korean women holding hands all the time here and they aren't gay. Also, the men here wear really tight clothing and skinny ties and nobody seems to think that is gay. I have a few gay expat friends in Korea and they have no problem. THis is not the middle east. Just have common sense and if you are a same sex couple keep some of PDA to a minimum in public places where some people might get offended. I would say this to straight people as well. Anyways, welcome to Korea and have a blast!!!! |
In the Middle East I've seen men holding hands alot but that doesn't mean they are gay so I don't think its relevant if straight Korean people are holding hands or not. The OP isn't Korean so this wouldn't apply to him. Also why are people obsessed with how gay men are supposed to dress?
I don't know how things are massively different from the middle east except that you can't be arrested. Don't be Scott Mills on that tv show "World's Worst Place to Gay".
| Quote: |
My advice:
-Don't tell your boss
-Don't tell your students
-Don't tell students' parents
-Don't tell your Korean coworkers
(the reason for all of the above is because sexual orientation is not part of the discrimination clause here- so you could technically lose your job)
-Don't tell your recruiter
-Be careful about telling your foreign coworkers (I'm out to all of mine, but I went through a little "trial" period to see if I could trust them)
-Make sure your facebook and anything else online is private
-Check out stuff online (I would give you more specifics, but I only really know lesbo stuff). Find a group. Make friends. Have fun |
That seems like sensible advice - we could simplify it down to don't tell anyone who is Korean, don't add people to your facebook if you have gay groups on it, don't tell any straight foreigners either especially if they are from the American South. |
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