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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Savant,
It is the two-faced nature of PEOPLE, not of Koreans, or of Korean business owners, or of "Korean" anything -- PEOPLE are like this, everywhere. If you did not see it in business in your own country, then I would wager you have very little work experience in your home country. I got screwed over more by management in the US than I have EVER been screwed over in Korea...and MY first job in Korea was at a Wonderland.
I have always been, and still am on an E-2 visa -- it doesn't take an F-visa to make finding a job easier -- it is as Patrick said. Make contacts, develop your own abilities, and learn how to present yourself in a positive light.
Argue against the facts, not against the person. Patrick might upset you, but you haven't countered his points...in fact, it looks like you agree with him. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Here is an idea shifty...why not post advice in threads instead of jumping into a thread simply to get on my posts?
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This is not true. Take a look at this thread as a fine example.
You only have a hazy view of the content in threads. The reason is your posts are rambly and overlong, you spend too much time on what you want to say and don't listen. |
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Savant
Joined: 25 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
Savant,
It is the two-faced nature of PEOPLE, not of Koreans, or of Korean business owners, or of "Korean" anything -- PEOPLE are like this, everywhere. If you did not see it in business in your own country, then I would wager you have very little work experience in your home country. I got screwed over more by management in the US than I have EVER been screwed over in Korea...and MY first job in Korea was at a Wonderland.
I have always been, and still am on an E-2 visa -- it doesn't take an F-visa to make finding a job easier -- it is as Patrick said. Make contacts, develop your own abilities, and learn how to present yourself in a positive light.
Argue against the facts, not against the person. Patrick might upset you, but you haven't countered his points...in fact, it looks like you agree with him. |
I have no experience of working in the US so I cannot say how US and Korea compares regarding screwy management. In the UK, I was a working professional and I was afforded every right that was detailed in my contract and required by law. I had never had to fight to get Pension or Health Insurance. Hell, even when I worked at McDonalds in my youth, I was treated with more respect regarding my contract than I have ever received in Korea. The only thing that had parallels with Korean schools and working at McDonalds was the taking of sick days.
You have your experience and I have mine. So far, I have encountered more two-faced Koreans in my 3+ years here than I have in my much longer working experience back home. Yes, back home people could be bitchy and back-stabbers on a personal level and also professional level but I was never put in a position when I was worried about getting paid, getting pension or getting health insurance. Too many Korean employers flaunt the law and quite frankly, it's got to stop. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:39 am Post subject: |
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One only has to do some research to find how Chinese immigrants were exploited to build railways and other busineses in both the US and Canada.
Moose Jaw Saskatchewan has a museum where Chinese workers were
forced to stay underground, live in sub-human conditions and work for
starvation wages.
I'd say most EFLer's have it pretty good compared to that. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
One only has to do some research to find how Chinese immigrants were exploited to build railways and other busineses in both the US and Canada.
Moose Jaw Saskatchewan has a museum where Chinese workers were
forced to stay underground, live in sub-human conditions and work for
starvation wages.
I'd say most EFLer's have it pretty good compared to that. |
Somehow this contrast is not the very one I was looking for.
What did I do to be compared with an indentured Chinese slave?
I prefer to be humble with a smaller h. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:36 am Post subject: |
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What did they do? other than be Chinese?
Just trying to add some perspective.
http://www.virtualsk.com/current_issue/new_digs.html
Prior to Prohibition, the tunnels and basements were the sunless domain of Chinese immigrants who lived and toiled in steam laundries and gunny-sack factories. Many worked to save money to pay the "head tax" required for Canadian citizenship.
Chinese immigrants lived, worked and slept (background bunks) beneath the streets of Moose Jaw
Their story is told in "Passage to Fortune", an honest and moving presentation that pulls few punches in dealing with the racist attitudes in North America 100 years ago, and how Chinese Canadians rose above them to find happiness and prosperity. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
What did they do? other than be Chinese?
Just trying to add some perspective.
http://www.virtualsk.com/current_issue/new_digs.html
Prior to Prohibition, the tunnels and basements were the sunless domain of Chinese immigrants who lived and toiled in steam laundries and gunny-sack factories. Many worked to save money to pay the "head tax" required for Canadian citizenship.
Chinese immigrants lived, worked and slept (background bunks) beneath the streets of Moose Jaw
Their story is told in "Passage to Fortune", an honest and moving presentation that pulls few punches in dealing with the racist attitudes in North America 100 years ago, and how Chinese Canadians rose above them to find happiness and prosperity. |
Waygukin, I think you need a realignment of your noble outlook. Am I the person to do it for you, could very well be. I herewith accept my duty.
Look at it like this, do you ever forsee a time when a Chinese CFL teacher might regale the injustices done to EFL teachers in Korea??
And set it down in hard write where noone could possibly care.. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for that.
I feel so much better now. |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
What did they do? other than be Chinese?
Just trying to add some perspective.
http://www.virtualsk.com/current_issue/new_digs.html
Prior to Prohibition, the tunnels and basements were the sunless domain of Chinese immigrants who lived and toiled in steam laundries and gunny-sack factories. Many worked to save money to pay the "head tax" required for Canadian citizenship.
Chinese immigrants lived, worked and slept (background bunks) beneath the streets of Moose Jaw
Their story is told in "Passage to Fortune", an honest and moving presentation that pulls few punches in dealing with the racist attitudes in North America 100 years ago, and how Chinese Canadians rose above them to find happiness and prosperity. |
And this is an example of what example not to bring into a discussion of working conditions for native English teachers in 2011. 
There is a huge difference in the example you gave of harsh times when conditions for just about every kind of migrant worker were difficult although obviously some had it worse than others and let's not get started on African slavery or even the practice of shipping Irish people out of their homeland overrun by British colonialism to also be more or less slaves in places like the Caribbean.
You might as well point out how cruel and backwards sex trafficking is - which it is. Korea is just one country where human trafficking is a national disgrace especially for the way in which Immigration officials and law enforcement officers wink and nod their way through corrupt practices which perpetuate the tragedy, to the disgusting extent where HIV tests are given to native English teachers while 'entertainers', some of whom were forced into their 'occupation' are not subject to such tests and other precautionary measures.
Yet this is by and large irrelevant to the issue of dishonest Korean employers. A standard public school contract and a standard hagwon contract for native English speakers in which certain rights and benefits are stipulated would be enforceable by law if they were contracts for say, Korean language teachers in the UK.
The Korean notion that contracts are just convenient pieces of paper which can be ripped up or 're-negotiated- by pressuring the employee is certainly a feature of employment practices here. Stop blaming people who sign contracts in good faith for this unlikeable and dishonest cultural bent.
Your post reminded me of a similar laughable 'argument' trotted out with some frequency on the eslcafe - the notion that somehow native English teachers and their jobs are comparable with Mexicans who live and work without visas in the US because they entered and live illegally there. It's not hard to see how irrelevant the premise likewise is in this case - the idea that illegal residents/workers can be seriously compared to people who follow laws set down by Korean Immigration pertaining to who can apply for a visa to enter and stay in Korea, and who obtain visas to do just that.
Likewise the tragedy of those Chinese workers is irrelevant in a no. of ways to the situation in 2011 in first world Korea for native English speakers who qualify as E-2 visa holders. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
What did they do? other than be Chinese?
Just trying to add some perspective.
http://www.virtualsk.com/current_issue/new_digs.html
Prior to Prohibition, the tunnels and basements were the sunless domain of Chinese immigrants who lived and toiled in steam laundries and gunny-sack factories. Many worked to save money to pay the "head tax" required for Canadian citizenship.
Chinese immigrants lived, worked and slept (background bunks) beneath the streets of Moose Jaw
Their story is told in "Passage to Fortune", an honest and moving presentation that pulls few punches in dealing with the racist attitudes in North America 100 years ago, and how Chinese Canadians rose above them to find happiness and prosperity. |
And this is an example of what example not to bring into a discussion of working conditions for native English teachers in 2011.
There is a huge difference in the example you gave of harsh times when conditions for just about every kind of migrant worker were difficult although obviously some had it worse than others and let's not get started on African slavery or even the practice of shipping Irish people out of their homeland overrun by British colonialism to also be more or less slaves in places like the Caribbean.
You might as well point out how cruel and backwards sex trafficking is - which it is. Korea is just one country where human trafficking is a national disgrace especially for the way in which Immigration officials and law enforcement officers wink and nod their way through corrupt practices which perpetuate the tragedy, to the disgusting extent where HIV tests are given to native English teachers while 'entertainers', some of whom were forced into their 'occupation' are not subject to such tests and other precautionary measures.
Yet this is by and large irrelevant to the issue of dishonest Korean employers. A standard public school contract and a standard hagwon contract for native English speakers in which certain rights and benefits are stipulated would be enforceable by law if they were contracts for say, Korean language teachers in the UK.
The Korean notion that contracts are just convenient pieces of paper which can be ripped up or 're-negotiated- by pressuring the employee is certainly a feature of employment practices here. Stop blaming people who sign contracts in good faith for this unlikeable and dishonest cultural bent.
Your post reminded me of a similar laughable 'argument' trotted out with some frequency on the eslcafe - the notion that somehow native English teachers and their jobs are comparable with Mexicans who live and work without visas in the US because they entered and live illegally there. It's not hard to see how irrelevant the premise likewise is in this case - the idea that illegal residents/workers can be seriously compared to people who follow laws set down by Korean Immigration pertaining to who can apply for a visa to enter and stay in Korea, and who obtain visas to do just that.
Likewise the tragedy of those Chinese workers is irrelevant in a no. of ways to the situation in 2011 in first world Korea for native English speakers who qualify as E-2 visa holders. |
Great post, earthquake!!
I think some wayguk-in has been in the East for quite some years and this can make produce the odd aberration. But he means well and has a good strike rate.
Last edited by shifty on Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:28 am Post subject: |
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I think you both are missing the point I was trying to get across.
It's got nothing to do with what's relevant to EFL teachers today,
it's got everything to do with having people take notice that by and large
we (Westerners) are getting a better deal of things than most.
(both historically and now)
Exploitation is wrong no matter who does it and no matter which century or which side of the ocean it happens to be on. I think a lot of Canadians have a mis-informed notion of what went on or still goes on in our own country. Canada is not squeaky clean by any means.
And I'm not trying to take away anything from the negatives that EFL teachers face. Those things are wrong and I wish we could have a perfect world where those things don't happen.
Just trying to get people to see that things could be much worse.
I guess my attempt gets a "fail" then.
Oh well.
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
[
The Korean notion that contracts are just convenient pieces of paper which can be ripped up or 're-negotiated- by pressuring the employee is certainly a feature of employment practices here. Stop blaming people who sign contracts in good faith for this unlikeable and dishonest cultural bent.
. |
I had a boss who had that notion in her head once. The labor board took a very dim view of that notion. And that's all it is...a notion. Such actions are illegal under the KLSA.
As for blaming people, if they believe what their boss says about the contracts just being pieces of paper and spinelessly knuckle under, then I will continue to blame them. I wish people would do their research before coming here instead of believing all these old wives' tales. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Well good for you.
In my case the labor office didn't have anyone who spoke English.
They refused to hear my case and promptly asked me to leave.
Like everything else in Korea, it depends where you are and who you talk to.
Shame on you for thinking that everyone will be as lucky as you were. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
Well good for you.
In my case the labor office didn't have anyone who spoke English.
They refused to hear my case and promptly asked me to leave.
Like everything else in Korea, it depends where you are and who you talk to.
Shame on you for thinking that everyone will be as lucky as you were. |
Well if luck involves paying a bi-lingual speaker to translate for me and being prepared with all necessary documents then yes indeed shame on me.
Obviously if you spoke no Korean and they spoke no English...it would be impossible for them to hear your case. In that case the onus falls on YOU to resolve it. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| ZIFA wrote: |
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Workplace abuses are on the rise, they know they can get away with it in the current economic climate. |
Really? And you've arrived at this fact how? |
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