Korean Job Discussion Forums

[stilicho25]

Actually I am sure some immigrants did take part, and I am sure many more did not. I think this was as much a result of a bankrupt consumer culture than anything else. However, I still feel like the liberal response is completely insane.

Unions rose when semi-skilled and skilled labor working on industries critical to the success of the nation state organized and forced the government and industry to recognize the value of their labor. Coal miners, steel workers, factory workers who had a great deal of skill and happened to be some seriously tough hombres who could send any company goon stupid enough to show his face out on his ass.

Those jobs are gone. That's why the unions are dying. These days their is little work for semi-skilled labor. Its moved into skilled, or down to retail. Retail is horrible and mind numbing, and it would be easy to replace them with other people should they try to become difficult and want things from management.

So while you could take the money off of bankers (fake money) and pay it to Tesco workers (fake work) and feel good about yourself, or you could implement a sane economic plan that would involve gutting welfare, confiscating banker wealth, and developing a policy of industrial development backed by tariffs if necessary.

[Kimbop]

[Privateer]

^ Unemployed or working and signing on at the same time?

[bigverne]

[aq8knyus]

@Kimbop
Firstly Britain was far more socialist in the 60�s and 70�s than it is now, the unions back then toppled Prime Ministers. Also what do you mean by identity and culture, there is no unifying culture that binds all English people let alone all Brits. In fact immigrant culture has been absorbed and anglicized just look at our food for example. If by culture you mean loyalty to Britain and respect for democracy etc then apart from the fanatics our immigrants are not especially treasonous.

Also are those Muslims all immigrants? A Muslim Briton could be a 1st or 5th generation immigrant, if they are born and bred here then their unemployment is a British problem not an immigrant one. In any case its economics which is at the cause of this not their race/culture.

I was not aware there was something in Muslim culture which made them inherently work-shy. Immigrants and their descendants were historically attracted to areas that were cheaper and had low skilled work
opportunities hence their concentrations in the northern industrial towns and cities. Their greater incidence of unemployment is simply a result of the general economic downturn in those areas. It has affected all races and all cultures.

Also I agree we need to lift a greater number of people out of welfare, but the way to do that is not to suddenly rip out all support for people and then tell them they are on their own. Using government money to support education, training opportunities and yes helping people maintain an acceptable standard of living is the humane and more effective course of action.

I am a product of that system I come from those areas and with the welfare support that my family received we were able to improve our employability.

By the way welfare for the majority of people is not very comfortable, except for cases of abuse or stupid stories of immigrants getting housed in mansions. For the vast majority of Brits on welfare it means getting by with a very limited budget, yes people get money for kids but kids are very expensive. They may get their rent paid for them but unless they are getting incapacity benefit their JSA doesn�t leave much of a disposable income.

I get the impression that you are ruled by ideology and not pragmatism, if they are rioting now just wait till they don�t have enough money to feed and clothe themselves

[aq8knyus]

@bigverne
Well we have moved on somewhat in those thousands of years, not a lot, but still enough that there is not going to be rivers of blood based on racial issues.

It�s about money, is there really a high chance of racial conflict between financially secure and educated people of whatever ethnic background. Where there is racial tension there is also poverty, whether it�s Paris or London the more ethnically diverse areas are also among the poorest.

Interestingly in London white English people were not averse to rioting along with their non-white counterparts. The thing that united them was their socio-economic status, the thrill seekers notwithstanding.

[bigverne]

[aq8knyus]

@bigverne
I was only really referencing first world Western Europe which in itself is a massive issue. Globally, yes you are right, although the dynamic is very different.

Plus in Britain�s case our islands have always been quite heterogeneous racially even before the advent of the Windrush generation. The mix of just the English, Irish, Welsh and Scottish with all their different cultural backgrounds has meant that we were never homogenous in the same way the Koreans are.

In the modern age immigration has been spurred by economics, there was never a policy to create a more ethnically diverse country for ideological reasons. Britain needs immigrants and has benefited from their labour, so much so that even today whilst immigration has been toughened no sitting government wants to risk hurting the economy by severely curtailing their numbers.

[bigverne]

[aq8knyus]

@bigverne

Okay I will hold my hands up and say unrestricted mass immigration is probably as misguided as a complete ban. Though not for cultural/race reasons, simply for the economic consequences you alluded to such as depressing wages. An abundance of labour is usually never good for the bargaining rights of workers.

However, even the strictest Tory immigration plan still envisages 10s of thousands of immigrants coming in per year. Plus not even the Tories would risk Britain�s economic future by putting any blocks on the biggest source of immigrants the EU.

This all points to the fact that immigration is still a necessity for Britain�s economy. I am all for getting rid of people who abuse the system or illegally enter, but immigration needs to continue.

It�s useful to debate the scale of immigration but not the practice itself.

[bigverne]

[aq8knyus]

@Bigverne

The EU is certainly the biggest legal source of immigrants to this country their numbers are measured in the hundreds of thousands. Refugee�s applications alone do not even break 100,000.

Also most of that EU immigration is temporary and circular with numbers fluctuating hugely. Furthermore A8 nationals the ones from the new EEurope EU countries do have restrictions on claiming benefits, A2 (Bulgaria and Romania) even more so. These immigrants are young and educated the only danger is how they outclass the locals.

Remember also that after 15 years if you have lived in the UK you can gain citizenship even if you came in illegally. So when we say immigrant we are not talking about the already established non-white population, they are as British as you and me.

I also think perception is key, when you say immigrant it conjures up images of illiterate Eritrean day labourers. However, a large part of legal non-EU immigration is made of educated multi skilled people who spend a lot of time and money securing work permits.

You do realise that it is extremely difficult and expensive for a non-EU citizen to secure a work visa in the UK. Firms sponsor this lengthy process because there is a need to attract the best and/or most suitable candidate.

Finally unemployment does not match exactly the job opportunities available. Just because there are say 10,000 people unemployed that doesn't mean they can just be slotted into the first 10,000 job openings.

Unemployed 40yr old IT engineers with a family are not going to accept a job as a factory hand. On the flip side an Indian restaurant cannot employ Wayne from Woking to prepare their menu.

[bigverne]

[aq8knyus]

@Bigverne

I can agree with the need to combat illegal immigration and abusers of the system more effectively. The numbers I read put illegal immigrant numbers between 3 and 5 hundred thousand.

Also in terms of manufacturing the UK stills does ok in terms of industrial output, we are in the top 10. However I suspect most of that is down to arms. In which case most of the workers will have to be British or commonwealth citizens with extensive links to the UK.

[Privateer]