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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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 Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
Thank you for the chuckle this morning.
Nice fantasy but the reality is:
A) There aren't enough jobs at home for all the recent grads and unemployed teachers.
B) Jobs in Korea aren't the best and turn out to be crap (like flipping burgers - McD language academy anyone?) but they pay better with no overhead and the chance to begin to pay down those crushing student loans.
As long as A and B remain true you will find people (recent grads and the thousands of currently laid-off, unemployed US teachers) flocking to Korea (or other locations in Asia).
As soon as wages in Korea drop much below where they are now the numbers of people willing to be here will be much smaller (look at the exodus in the late 90s when the won fell to 1800/dollar. As the packages in China (where demand is HOT) continue to rise (they have gone from 3000CNY a decade ago to approaching 10k CNY now (with savings on the order of $1000/mo) for the same job) the numbers who look to Korea will begin to drop.
People don't come to Korea for the "cultural experience" - FACT.
If they want a "cultural experience" they think of places like Japan, China, Thailand, Indonesia. They come here for the money and if it wasn't for the money the number of teachers they could recruit would drop to 1999 levels (4000 E2s issued if memory serves me correctly).
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
| My guess is that private instruction will turn out to be the most successfgul while this network of recruiters-HAGWONs-Public Schools continues to meltdown. In a fantasy I can easily imagine people who have been in Korea for a while gravitating towards like-minded individuals and providing to students the sort of growth that the parents believe will help their kids be successes in the future. FWIW. |
As to Bruce's fantasy .... well, as long as private tutoring remains a punishable offense (fines, possible detention and/or deportation) your fantasy will remain just that and hagwans will continue to thrive.
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Ah...well..... of course you know more about the nature of things in Korea. All I can say is that if people argue long enough and hard enough for their limitations, they get them.
In the matter under discussion I am aware of people starting their own businesses in Korea as well as working for both Korean nationals and firms managed by non-Koreans. If the established people in Korea actually wanted to up-grade the nature of the ESL-EFL industry, maybe foreign nationals starting their own businesses and employing foreign nationals might be the way to do it. After all, the "only thing necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing", yes?
OTOH, maybe improving the industry is not a very high priority for people who already "have theirs". FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
Ah...well..... of course you know more about the nature of things in Korea. All I can say is that if people argue long enough and hard enough for their limitations, they get them.
In the matter under discussion I am aware of people starting their own businesses in Korea as well as working for both Korean nationals and firms managed by non-Koreans. If the established people in Korea actually wanted to up-grade the nature of the ESL-EFL industry, maybe foreign nationals starting their own businesses and employing foreign nationals might be the way to do it. After all, the "only thing necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing", yes?
OTOH, maybe improving the industry is not a very high priority for people who already "have theirs". FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
1) Acquiring the visa you need in order to own and operate a business requires pumping a ton of money into the business you're establishing (previously 50 million won, which I believe has gone up to 100 million at this point). Most foreign teachers here don't have that kind of cash available, and credit isn't available to us through Korean channels. If you have $100,000 to play with, how about you invest in starting a school in Korea, rather than looking down your nose at those who don't?
2) It spanks of cultural hubris to think that Koreans would automatically flock to a school owned and operated by foreigners.
But hey, thanks for keeping us entertained. |
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minos
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Location: kOREA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:33 am Post subject: |
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I know a foreigner who started his own school. He makes bank in his twenties and has a hot Korean wife.
He had a good rep and taught at daewon before branching out. |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
Ah...well..... of course you know more about the nature of things in Korea. All I can say is that if people argue long enough and hard enough for their limitations, they get them.
In the matter under discussion I am aware of people starting their own businesses in Korea as well as working for both Korean nationals and firms managed by non-Koreans. If the established people in Korea actually wanted to up-grade the nature of the ESL-EFL industry, maybe foreign nationals starting their own businesses and employing foreign nationals might be the way to do it. After all, the "only thing necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing", yes?
OTOH, maybe improving the industry is not a very high priority for people who already "have theirs". FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
1) Acquiring the visa you need in order to own and operate a business requires pumping a ton of money into the business you're establishing (previously 50 million won, which I believe has gone up to 100 million at this point). Most foreign teachers here don't have that kind of cash available, and credit isn't available to us through Korean channels. If you have $100,000 to play with, how about you invest in starting a school in Korea, rather than looking down your nose at those who don't?
2) It spanks of cultural hubris to think that Koreans would automatically flock to a school owned and operated by foreigners.
But hey, thanks for keeping us entertained. |
Well, thanks.... but it also smacks of "Learned Helplessness" to sit around on a forum and whine about what you CAN'T do. My own understanding is that there are people who visit here who are doing quite well in Korea, have been there for a number of years and are pretty well regarded. Maybe its time for people to stop looking at the ESL-EFL market as a kind of "vacation" and realize that "divided you fall".
How about your own case, North? How long have YOU been in Korea and what have you done to develop yourself professionally? What have you done to help OTHER people develop THEMSELVES professionally. You may be surprised to know that "Learned Helplessness" is also alive and well here in the States as well, and you are not the first person I have run into who wants to hold-fast to what they CAN'T do. Could be that DAVE'S has outlived its usefulness merely as a place for people to come and complain about cockroaches and not getting laid. Maybe its time for DAVE'S to up-grade as a place for people to Network towards starting their own businesses. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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goat
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce, Mr. Know-it-All (Doesn't-know-Diddly), is back at it again. |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| goat wrote: |
| Bruce, Mr. Know-it-All (Doesn't-know-Diddly), is back at it again. |
Hmmmm....good point lets see....what do I know?
I know that the same people who come on here and make innane comments such as your waste bandwidth when they could have made a productive and intelligent contribution.
I know that there are enough knowlegeable people on here that the ESL-EFL industry in Korea need not be in the straits that it is.
I know that there are probably people reading this post----right now--- who have had impulses to do something and talked themselves out of it.
I know that the single biggest obstacle to an individual growing is most often themselves and their view of what they are about.
I know that if I make enough suggestions, observations and encouraging remarks, just maybe someone will get the idea that they may seem like they are trapped in a cage----but that the key to the lock is in their own pocket.
FWIW. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| minos wrote: |
I know a foreigner who started his own school. He makes bank in his twenties and has a hot Korean wife.
He had a good rep and taught at daewon before branching out. |
Indeed, because marrying into an F visa allows you to get around the visa restrictions (and massive monetary commitment) that you would typically have to make in order to start a business here.
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
Well, thanks.... but it also smacks of "Learned Helplessness" to sit around on a forum and whine about what you CAN'T do. My own understanding is that there are people who visit here who are doing quite well in Korea, have been there for a number of years and are pretty well regarded. Maybe its time for people to stop looking at the ESL-EFL market as a kind of "vacation" and realize that "divided you fall".
How about your own case, North? How long have YOU been in Korea and what have you done to develop yourself professionally? What have you done to help OTHER people develop THEMSELVES professionally. You may be surprised to know that "Learned Helplessness" is also alive and well here in the States as well, and you are not the first person I have run into who wants to hold-fast to what they CAN'T do. Could be that DAVE'S has outlived its usefulness merely as a place for people to come and complain about cockroaches and not getting laid. Maybe its time for DAVE'S to up-grade as a place for people to Network towards starting their own businesses. FWIW. |
1) Please inform me how you get around visa regulations regarding business ownership? As far as I know, you basically have to marry a Korean.
2) Considering this isn't my chosen field, I've done very little to develop myself professionally, but that's not why I came here. What I have done, however, is save enough for a year of a master's degree in my chosen area of study, while also learning some Korean. That's more than a lot of my fellow '08 grads can say.
3) You fail to address why Koreans would want to go to your fantasy school over a school owned, operated, and staffed by Koreans. How are you going to convince them that your school is better? Salesmanship is 90% of hagwon ownership; even without the visa requirements, very few foreigners would have the Korean language ability necessary to bring students in on their own, and within that, many mothers would have some trust issues with a business devoid of Koreans.
But hey, again, you know better, despite never having visited the country or worked in the industry. |
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AliNZ
Joined: 11 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Age seems to a factor for me. With more than 10 years ESL experience - most of it in Korea - at 56, it's proving to be a challenge. |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| minos wrote: |
I know a foreigner who started his own school. He makes bank in his twenties and has a hot Korean wife.
He had a good rep and taught at daewon before branching out. |
Indeed, because marrying into an F visa allows you to get around the visa restrictions (and massive monetary commitment) that you would typically have to make in order to start a business here.
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
Well, thanks.... but it also smacks of "Learned Helplessness" to sit around on a forum and whine about what you CAN'T do. My own understanding is that there are people who visit here who are doing quite well in Korea, have been there for a number of years and are pretty well regarded. Maybe its time for people to stop looking at the ESL-EFL market as a kind of "vacation" and realize that "divided you fall".
How about your own case, North? How long have YOU been in Korea and what have you done to develop yourself professionally? What have you done to help OTHER people develop THEMSELVES professionally. You may be surprised to know that "Learned Helplessness" is also alive and well here in the States as well, and you are not the first person I have run into who wants to hold-fast to what they CAN'T do. Could be that DAVE'S has outlived its usefulness merely as a place for people to come and complain about cockroaches and not getting laid. Maybe its time for DAVE'S to up-grade as a place for people to Network towards starting their own businesses. FWIW. |
1) Please inform me how you get around visa regulations regarding business ownership? As far as I know, you basically have to marry a Korean.
2) Considering this isn't my chosen field, I've done very little to develop myself professionally, but that's not why I came here. What I have done, however, is save enough for a year of a master's degree in my chosen area of study, while also learning some Korean. That's more than a lot of my fellow '08 grads can say.
3) You fail to address why Koreans would want to go to your fantasy school over a school owned, operated, and staffed by Koreans. How are you going to convince them that your school is better? Salesmanship is 90% of hagwon ownership; even without the visa requirements, very few foreigners would have the Korean language ability necessary to bring students in on their own, and within that, many mothers would have some trust issues with a business devoid of Koreans.
But hey, again, you know better, despite never having visited the country or worked in the industry. |
Why, yes, North,....honestly, I DO know better. I don't have to go to Korea to know that people can work together and be successful as a group. See, that old saw about needing to be in Korea because it lends some special insight isn't going to work anymore....at least not with me.
People start businesses in Korea just like anywhere else in the world. People work together in Korea just like anywhere else in the world.
People solve problems just like anywhere else in the world.
AFAICS the only thing special about being in Korea is that it provides you with a wealth of excuses not to problem solve. But I daresay you didn't need to go to Korea for that. You have probably been like this long before you thought of Korea. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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Bruce, if ever I need some moral support at the loans bank, you would undoubtedly be the one I'd choose to be at my side.
The harassed credit manager would eventually toss his 'persistency rating' form to the floor in disgust and yell for the chequebook. |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| shifty wrote: |
Bruce, if ever I need some moral support at the loans bank, you would undoubtedly be the one I'd choose to be at my side.
The harassed credit manager would eventually toss his 'persistency rating' form to the floor in disgust and yell for the chequebook. |
Thanks, Shifty..... I'm not sure if things would go down precisely that way, but we can only hope. 
In the meantime there is another thread that has just opened up about people IN Korea looking for jobs and the story I am getting is that things have "changed" in the Korean job market, and that the idea of "thousands of jobs" is being revealed for the illusion that it is. Effectively this will probably push outsiders such as myself waaaay to the back of the employment line. However, I still hold that if individuals inside of Korea pull together, weathering this down-turn will be much more successful. I would ask you to remember that you are talking to someone who has been through 6 or 7 of these Recession cycles since 1972. The people who had the hardest time when these down-turns hit were the ones who tried to go it completely by themselves. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
However, I still hold that if individuals inside of Korea pull together, weathering this down-turn will be much more successful. The people who had the hardest time when these down-turns hit were the ones who tried to go it completely by themselves. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
I'm unsure what you mean here. I'm obliged to say 'pull together' sounds
like a cliche.
Aren't we always alone? Then we strive to up our wares to the limit of our talents, so that others may wish to buy.
How do we stand together in practical terms? Why is it wise to do so? |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| shifty wrote: |
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
However, I still hold that if individuals inside of Korea pull together, weathering this down-turn will be much more successful. The people who had the hardest time when these down-turns hit were the ones who tried to go it completely by themselves. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
I'm unsure what you mean here. I'm obliged to say 'pull together' sounds
like a cliche.
Aren't we always alone? Then we strive to up our wares to the limit of our talents, so that others may wish to buy.
How do we stand together in practical terms? Why is it wise to do so? |
Cliche'? Not at all. I don't know what country you hail from originally, but bear with me a bit and I will give a personal experience.
The country I came home to after Vietnam was not very welcoming and that usually meant that Vietnam vets got the dirty end of the stick more often than not. In time, however, these vets began to network with each other. Everything from the best educational programs to job leads to dealing with personal problems could be found if only by reaching out to other Vietnam vets.
In like manner, the regular corporations with their stormy ups-and-downs produced people who learned how to work together by sharing leads, keeping each other up-dated on trends and making suggestions about everything from tightening-up resume'-s to suggesting training to enhance skill-sets.
Now....lets flip the coin over.
I spent 15 years with a US Government agency---Department of Veterans Affairs--- and worked at one of their Medical Centers. I won't say anything about the work ethic other than it was about as checkered as what I am seeing in the Korean ESL-EFL situation. But the reason I bring this up is because the agency was government and the people were used to "womb-to-tomb" security of government employment. As far as they were concerned there was no need for a "plan B". Beginning about 2000 the US Government began to preasure agencies to cut the "driftwood" from their manning and the s*** really hit the fan. People who had never feared for their jobs now realized that anyone was fair game. But since these people had never developed an approach to helping each other it became an "every man for himself" situation.
I suggest that the situation in Korea is very much the same as what I have described in my VA experience and that it need not be. I COULD be like the earlier experiences I mentioned.... if people will just start working with each other instead of immediately thinking only of their individual survival. Does this make sense?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the comprehensive reply, Brucie Babe!!!! I just had a sense that it would be meat and drink to you!!
To tell you my gut feeling, I think if EVERYONE did what you propose, it would constitute an antisocial concept. If you're unsure of my meaning, I'll say more in a subsequent post.
I'm from South Africa. My father was in the SA army fighting on the Allied side in WW2.
When they returned after 6 years, they were necessarily disadvantaged visavis their compatriots who had remained at home feathering their nest.
These demobbed soldiers formed the MOTHS or Memorial Order of the Tin Hats.
Their brief or charter was to aid those who ran into problems ultimately attributed to service for country.
It amounted to an Old Boys Club.
Almost simultaneously Apartheid became a feature and White South Africans became 'advantaged' for want of another word. My father was of opinion that anyone who couldn't make it in the bosom of White South Africa had only themselves to blame.
With the raison d'etre seemingly fallen away, the club nevertheless grew from strength to strength. It wasn't what you knew, rather who. For business tenders, jobs, it was rather akin to joining the golf club for business reasons.
I like a level playing field, dislike the formation of groups. My instinct is that they are anti-social. |
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cert43
Joined: 17 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| People are usually "anti-social""""" for a reason..and it usually has to do with other inconsiderate people who won't lieave them alone and just let them live thier life. |
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