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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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 Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
I spent 15 years with a US Government agency---Department of Veterans Affairs--- and worked at one of their Medical Centers. I won't say anything about the work ethic other than it was about as checkered as what I am seeing in the Korean ESL-EFL situation. But the reason I bring this up is because the agency was government and the people were used to "womb-to-tomb" security of government employment. As far as they were concerned there was no need for a "plan B". Beginning about 2000 the US Government began to preasure agencies to cut the "driftwood" from their manning and the s*** really hit the fan. People who had never feared for their jobs now realized that anyone was fair game. But since these people had never developed an approach to helping each other it became an "every man for himself" situation.
I suggest that the situation in Korea is very much the same as what I have described in my VA experience and that it need not be. I COULD be like the earlier experiences I mentioned.... if people will just start working with each other instead of immediately thinking only of their individual survival. Does this make sense?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
Not anything near the same.
They were, as you quoted, "womb to tomb" or thought they were and it created an "every man for himself" situation.
ESL/EFL (GLOBALLY) has always been (and largely continues to be) a transient profession with NO job security (other than the fact that globally it is a growth profession and we can easily move on to the next job in the next country).
In the past it was pretty much the realm of the back-packer seeking a gap year abroad. It has changed somewhat in that many countries now seek marginally higher standards (degree and clean CBC) but the nature of the job hasn't changed (at least not at the entry level in language academies).
When the turnover rate in an industry (and EFL IS a business) usually exceeds 60% annually (and occasionally goes as high as 80%) there is no "working together" (beyond next week).
It always will be every man for himself since your co-worker will be gone next week and replaced with another "fresh-off-the-plane" newbie.
(take a look at the past attempts to "organize" teachers in EFL over the last couple of decades in various places ending with the latest (Korean) failure (ATEK)).
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supermouse
Joined: 19 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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I definitely thought I had more job security before I lost my job at my hagwon. I am the guy who got low student scores and was forced to resign after only working a month and a half.
I thought a midnight run was a way of screwing your employer, i bet my old boss would love for me to leave so they can get a free apartment.
It seems more than ever we are expendable, i have been looking for a job and i thought it would be easier. There are countless other threads of other people having the same problem and are experienced. I just don't stand a chance against all the cute, bubbly girls coming over here with teaching degrees.
Think its time to pack my bags. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
People start businesses in Korea just like anywhere else in the world. People work together in Korea just like anywhere else in the world.
People solve problems just like anywhere else in the world.
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Just so I'm clear on this.... You don't live in Korea, nor have you ever, yet you're on this board lecturing ppl about what people do in Korea?
As a person with 10 years experience here, AND someone who's founded a company here, I know you're out to lunch. |
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melee
Joined: 20 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| I have been offered 3 contracts for hagwons. After deciding that I want to sign it, they all seem to change their mind. This sort of thing can drive one crazy after 2 months of job searching. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:40 am Post subject: |
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Bruce,
CC nailed it and I can only add to what he said. I started a consulting agency in Korea and know several other foreigners who run their own businesses in Korea. You should not be commenting on Korea-centric issues as you have never been there.
Your experience may be applicable in a broad generalist angle about business and teamwork but once you get down to Korea specifics, you would do well to avoid stating any kind of conclusions until you have actually experienced life in Korea. |
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Nester Noodlemon
Joined: 16 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Anyone notice, Bruce is still over there lecturing us on how things are over here?
though he has never been here |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:09 am Post subject: |
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Actually, what I have noticed is the more I point out that things are not so very different between how employment is handled in Korea vis the US, the harder and harder you folks argue that it is.
This leaves me wondering. After years of this ESL-EFL effort being maintained in Korea you guys are still bitching about the same short-comings. A person could be forgiven for concluding that rather than making things better you all have given-up and are merely bilking the system for anything you can suck out of it.
Once again, this makes Education in Korea not so very different from Education here in the States--- except that you have a vested interest in holding on this this belief. |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
People start businesses in Korea just like anywhere else in the world. People work together in Korea just like anywhere else in the world.
People solve problems just like anywhere else in the world.
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Just so I'm clear on this.... You don't live in Korea, nor have you ever, yet you're on this board lecturing ppl about what people do in Korea?
As a person with 10 years experience here, AND someone who's founded a company here, I know you're out to lunch. |
Oh....I'm sorry Capt C.... how could you have possibly done that when North reports such insurmountable obstacles. And gee, Patrick.... you started a company as well? How can this be?
So it IS possible to do what I mentioned....excepting where people don't care enough to make a change.
And...I'm sorry..... this is different from the same situation here in the States, how again????  |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
People start businesses in Korea just like anywhere else in the world. People work together in Korea just like anywhere else in the world.
People solve problems just like anywhere else in the world.
|
Just so I'm clear on this.... You don't live in Korea, nor have you ever, yet you're on this board lecturing ppl about what people do in Korea?
As a person with 10 years experience here, AND someone who's founded a company here, I know you're out to lunch. |
Oh....I'm sorry Capt C.... how could you have possibly done that when North reports such insurmountable obstacles. And gee, Patrick.... you started a company as well? How can this be?
So it IS possible to do what I mentioned....excepting where people don't care enough to make a change.
And...I'm sorry..... this is different from the same situation here in the States, how again???? |
Actually, Captain Corea and PatrickGHBusan are both married to Koreans, so their experiences go to support what I've been saying.
As for this:
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
| Once again, this makes Education in Korea not so very different from Education here in the States--- except that you have a vested interest in holding on this this belief. |
For-profit education is a niche market in the States. For-profit education is a huge market in Korea. It's not the same.
Last edited by northway on Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| Nester Noodlemon wrote: |
Anyone notice, Bruce is still over there lecturing us on how things are over here?
though he has never been here |
Pardon me.... but you (and everybody else) has yet to identify to me what this GREAT difference is between the situation in Korea and everywhere else that makes what I am talking about impossible.
Are you saying Networking is not possible? We are doing it right here.
Are you saying that non-Koreans can't start businesses? We have people here who have.
Are you saying that non-Koreans cannot avail themselves of Korea agencies? What about all of the folks who go to the Labor Board with their complaints?
Maybe you like that "never been to Korea" arguement because it sounds like a defense without actually having any real substance to it. The fact is that things continue as they do because thats the way you folks have decided to let them be. |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
People start businesses in Korea just like anywhere else in the world. People work together in Korea just like anywhere else in the world.
People solve problems just like anywhere else in the world.
|
Just so I'm clear on this.... You don't live in Korea, nor have you ever, yet you're on this board lecturing ppl about what people do in Korea?
As a person with 10 years experience here, AND someone who's founded a company here, I know you're out to lunch. |
Oh....I'm sorry Capt C.... how could you have possibly done that when North reports such insurmountable obstacles. And gee, Patrick.... you started a company as well? How can this be?
So it IS possible to do what I mentioned....excepting where people don't care enough to make a change.
And...I'm sorry..... this is different from the same situation here in the States, how again???? |
Actually, Captain Corea and PatrickGHBusan are both married to Koreans, so their experiences go to support what I've been saying.
As for this:
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
| Once again, this makes Education in Korea not so very different from Education here in the States--- except that you have a vested interest in holding on this this belief. |
For-profit education is a niche market in the States. For-profit education is a huge market in Korea. It's not the same. |
The fact is that people can do what I said. And if Patrick and Capt C wanted to hire non-Koreans of quality and forment a c-change in the ESL-EFL educational effort they could.
"......
For-profit education is a niche market in the States. For-profit education is a huge market in Korea. It's not the same......"
Geezus..... NOW WHOSE OUTTA TOUCH!! |
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Nester Noodlemon
Joined: 16 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
| Nester Noodlemon wrote: |
Anyone notice, Bruce is still over there lecturing us on how things are over here?
though he has never been here |
Pardon me.... but you (and everybody else) has yet to identify to me what this GREAT difference is between the situation in Korea and everywhere else that makes what I am talking about impossible.
Are you saying Networking is not possible? We are doing it right here.
Are you saying that non-Koreans can't start businesses? We have people here who have.
Are you saying that non-Koreans cannot avail themselves of Korea agencies? What about all of the folks who go to the Labor Board with their complaints?
Maybe you like that "never been to Korea" arguement because it sounds like a defense without actually having any real substance to it. The fact is that things continue as they do because thats the way you folks have decided to let them be. |
come on over to Korea and:
network- you might being doing it here (boasting on the internet)
start your own business- you haven't done it here
go the labor board with your complaints- you haven't done it here
What have you done to change things? Nothing!
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
For-profit education is a niche market in the States. For-profit education is a huge market in Korea. It's not the same......"
Geezus..... NOW WHOSE OUTTA TOUCH!! |
This is where your lack of in-country experience really comes to the fore, as I don't think you can possibly comprehend just how big the market is here without actually coming to Korea and seeing it for yourself. North America has nothing that compares, regardless of what assumptions you might make.
Regardless, you were saying anyone can go and start a school. My point was that it's not so simple. Foreign business owners can hire good teachers, sure, but that doesn't make it any easier for your run of the mill teacher here to start a business. |
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goat
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:53 am Post subject: |
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Bruce is a s^*% talker.
He could play soldier boy and talk ---- back home. But, he couldn't win in Vietnam.
Same here... different environment. |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:03 am Post subject: |
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Yes, yes, yes...... round and round we go.
I learned a long time ago not to argue with people who have a death-grip on their particular beliefs.
I've been lurker and posting here for the last 6 months and all I have been able to discern are folks who keep tramping in the same circles over and over again.
In Counseling there is a term----"crabs in a bucket"----. The simile' speaks to a bucket in which the crabs scuttle about. Then one of them tries to get up out of the bucket and the rest pull the individual back in. I notice that when someone points up a thought inconsistent with the common view the response of the contributors is point out all the reasons that such things CAN'T happen.
I have also learned that you get the life you make.
Your beliefs, and welcome to them. |
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