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My blood boils with fury
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jjgirl



Joined: 18 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sofaking wrote:
"YOUR BLOOD BOILS WITH FURY"
I tell you what, if you ever call one of my 3 daughters a "Halfie" or a "Hybrid" your boiling blood will be all over the sidewalk.

"Mixed" even pisses me off.


This kind of lack of understanding is where all this hate comes from in the first place. The TS obviously made this thread out of compassion and out of everything said here you have chosen to focus on these specific few words. Words are subjective, and they clearly weren't meant in any negative or hateful way. If you have a problem with them, maybe you should try telling TS, hey some people find those words offensive so maybe you should be sensitive to that next time. Education > hate
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the reason Korean's are fairly assimilationist/xenophobic is found in these two things-

A)A recent brutal invasion in which there was an attempt to eradicate their culture.

B)The past historical performance of 'Great Powers', all of which emerged as one due at least in part to a willingness to treat those that weren't like them like crap. See Native Americans, Zulus, Indians & Pakistanis, Chinese minorities, SE Asians, etc.

Seriously, its like a bunch of mafia kings who have gone straight (but still enjoying the spoils) telling other gangbangers to go to work at McDonald's. Now that might not be good advice or bad, but that's how it is sometimes perceived by right-wing elements in those countries.

C)The future indicators for multiculturalism in those countries which did emerge "great" and embraced multi-culti. Riots, ethnic tension, Reconquista, "Multiculturalism is Dead", BNP, Freedom Party, Norwegian Nutballs, etc.

Given all that, is it any wonder that newly empowered nations take a cautious view?

Now, not saying that that is the right way, those reasons above are considerations, but are not substitute for forward thinking positive policy which anti-immigration reactionary elements would impede, but at the same time yeah, there's pretty good reasons for not frolicking over into the mutli-culti pond.
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ZIFA



Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: Dici che il fiume..Trova la via al mare

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvalmer wrote:
ZIFA wrote:
If korea stops bringing in English teachers and foreign brides, then the mixed race sector will become indistinguishable from Koreans within 2-3 generations as they marry back into the fold. Korea would appear to be "pure" once more.

The same would happen to eg the UK if they suddenly stopped immigration. The whole population would look white again about 5 generations from now.

Ultimately isn't that the goal of most countries? Assimilation, not multiculturalism. And the society can take what they like of the new culture, like sushi. If you cut off immigration of one group, let's use the Japanese as an example, they assimilate within a few generations. Emigration out of Japan is minimal, and the countries that they go to have long established Japanese communities that are well into the assimilation process. Examples are Canada, the US and Brazil. All which used to have decent sized Japanese populations, but now are pretty much assimilated and intermarry with other groups.


Racism should primarily be eradicated by changing attitudes, but nevertheless if we arrive at a point in the future where ethnic identity fades and most people attain a mixed, cosmopolitain genetic background, then it will go a long way to eradicating prejudice.
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Steelrails

Countries that opened up their borders comparatively recently to large scale foreign immigration are doing pretty well. Most of Western Europe fits into this category and the UK in particular has done very well out of immigration.

The negatives you mentioned are nothing, the EDL and BNP are politically irrelevant, whilst there have been riots you have to remember that Europe generally is more volatile than Korea. No race riot in Paris has been more severe than 1968 similarly in the UK none has been worse than the Poll tax riots of 1991.

The majority of the most racially divisive states are the ones that have had large minorities present within their borders for a long time or right at their founding.
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aq8knyus wrote:
@Steelrails

Countries that opened up their borders comparatively recently to large scale foreign immigration are doing pretty well. Most of Western Europe fits into this category and the UK in particular has done very well out of immigration.

The negatives you mentioned are nothing, the EDL and BNP are politically irrelevant, whilst there have been riots you have to remember that Europe generally is more volatile than Korea. No race riot in Paris has been more severe than 1968 similarly in the UK none has been worse than the Poll tax riots of 1991.

The majority of the most racially divisive states are the ones that have had large minorities present within their borders for a long time or right at their founding.
Korea's policy makers will have to give their population an ultimatum, either have more babies or accept way more immigration.
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ZIFA



Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: Dici che il fiume..Trova la via al mare

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvalmer wrote:
Korea's policy makers will have to give their population an ultimatum, either have more babies or accept way more immigration.


or do what they are doing: borrow more and more foreigners (temporary economic migrants) then send them back.
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joesp



Joined: 16 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't think you have mentioned the push for multi-cultural families here in korea, called 다문화가족.

You would be hard-pressed, for example, to find an area which does not have a multi-cultural family help center.

This includes the countryside, of course, where now most of the foreign brides reside. In the past, international marriages in Korea were Korean women marrying Japanese or Westerners and leaving Korea. Now, it is foreign women marrying Korean men and staying in the country. And, international marriages currently account for 15% of all marriages in Korea. (This number is from my textbook for the program offered by the Legal Justice Department of the government, the division that runs the immigration centers).

So, Korea is starting to realize that with its low birth rate and aging population, and the unwillingness of many young Koreans to marry, immigration will become more and more a part of their future. In addition, Korean wages are much, much higher than other countries so many foreign women from poorer countries will desire to come to Korea. And, the government will find it impossible to stop Koreans from marrying these women.

These issues have already been decided, even if the population hasn't realized it yet.
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joesp wrote:
I really don't think you have mentioned the push for multi-cultural families here in korea, called 다문화가족.

You would be hard-pressed, for example, to find an area which does not have a multi-cultural family help center.

This includes the countryside, of course, where now most of the foreign brides reside. In the past, international marriages in Korea were Korean women marrying Japanese or Westerners and leaving Korea. Now, it is foreign women marrying Korean men and staying in the country. And, international marriages currently account for 15% of all marriages in Korea. (This number is from my textbook for the program offered by the Legal Justice Department of the government, the division that runs the immigration centers).

So, Korea is starting to realize that with its low birth rate and aging population, and the unwillingness of many young Koreans to marry, immigration will become more and more a part of their future. In addition, Korean wages are much, much higher than other countries so many foreign women from poorer countries will desire to come to Korea. And, the government will find it impossible to stop Koreans from marrying these women.

These issues have already been decided, even if the population hasn't realized it yet.
It's basically understood that the SK government will not have an 'official' mass immigration policy, or support one, until North Korea ceases to exist as a country.
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joesp



Joined: 16 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvalmer wrote:
It's basically understood that the SK government will not have an 'official' mass immigration policy, or support one, until North Korea ceases to exist as a country.

Question
I was referring to just such an official system that is already in place.
They have apparently been forced to develop a strategy that will help assimilate the many foreigners (non-Korean speakers) who are coming into their country. In other words, they have to lessen the social impact that these many non-Korean looking Koreans (after 2 years of marriage, they are granted citizenship) will have on the general social fabric by providing support services that help them assimilate, handle problems, and communicate.
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joesp wrote:
jvalmer wrote:
It's basically understood that the SK government will not have an 'official' mass immigration policy, or support one, until North Korea ceases to exist as a country.

Question
I was referring to just such an official system that is already in place.
They have apparently been forced to develop a strategy that will help assimilate the many foreigners (non-Korean speakers) who are coming into their country. In other words, they have to lessen the social impact that these many non-Korean looking Koreans (after 2 years of marriage, they are granted citizenship) will have on the general social fabric by providing support services that help them assimilate, handle problems, and communicate.
It's not official, it's just guys getting married to foreigners. But because rural men are marrying foreigners in large numbers the government is basically forced to provide services to spouses of Korean citizens. The government in no way encourage these marriages and probably wishes it didn't happen.

And those SE Asians doing those manual labor jobs are here temporary and are expected to leave. Actual non-ethnic-Korean family (or not marrying a Korean) immigrants coming into Korea barely tops 1000 per year. As long as the prospect of reunification with NK is there, a mass immigration policy will not be considered. Although I'm sure they do have plans for far far far in the future, or if they don't they should.
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joesp



Joined: 16 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvalmer wrote:
It's not official, it's just guys getting married to foreigners. But because rural men are marrying foreigners in large numbers the government is basically forced to provide services to spouses of Korean citizens. The government in no way encourage these marriages and probably wishes it didn't happen. .... As long as the prospect of reunification with NK is there, a mass immigration policy will not be considered. Although I'm sure they do have plans for far far far in the future, or if they don't they should.

It is only in fact partially true that the policy of Vietnamese wives for farmers is non-official as this was initiated by 강기갑 of the 민주노동당 and his party only has 5 seats in parliament. You seem to be defining "official" as "forced". I think it is fairly obvious that the marriages are not "official" i.e. "forced", because of course getting married is voluntary in Korea, and this policy started by 강기갑 is not a policy like a Stalin or Mao forcing mass action at gunpoint. However, my point was that the government's response is "official" because the multi-cultural family centers, as well as the naturalization policies of them once they are married, are government programs. Unless you want to argue that immigration is not a branch of the government, I don't know how else you would define "official". However, for you to argue that the government has no policy on immigration, you will have to maintain that these programs are not "official". On what basis can you say that the government's response is not "official"? Will you say they are not "official" because the governemnt had to offer these programs? and, on what basis can you prove that? In fact, whether the government was "forced" to offer these programs or if they decided to seems to be a moot question, because the policy is still "official" either way.

jvalmer wrote:
And those SE Asians doing those manual labor jobs are here temporary and are expected to leave. Actual non-ethnic-Korean family (or not marrying a Korean) immigrants coming into Korea barely tops 1000 per year.

one thousand people a year? that is probably the amount every few days. Actually, in 2009 there were 1,560,000 foreigners residing in Korea and this has increased on average 77,500 people per year because there were only 381,000 foreigners in Korea in 1999. I don't have the statistics showing their visa status so I can't venture a guess as to how many are doing "manual labor".

If you increased your knowledge of the facts, your erroneous conclusions about Korean immigration will stop making your life in Korea more unpleasant than it needs to be. Daily life is hard enough over here without your kind of mis-information.


Last edited by joesp on Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joesp wrote:
However, my point was that the government's response is "official" because the multi-cultural family centers, as well as the naturalization policies of them once they are married, are government programs. Unless you want to argue that immigration is not a branch of the government, I don't know how else you would define "official".
The government response is official, but in no way are people marrying Korean citizens government policy to encourage immigration. Korea does not have a mass immigration policy and won't have one as long as NK is around.

joesp wrote:
one thousand people a year? that is probably the amount every few days. Actually, in 2009 there were 1,560,000 foreigners residing in Korea and this has increased on average 77,500 people per year because there were only 381,000 foreigners in Korea in 1999. I don't have the statistics showing their visa status so I can't venture a guess as to how many are doing "manual labor".
And all these foreigners are on visas that expire. They aren't immigrants, many may want to be, but the SK government has no plans to naturalize any of them. Also, SK won't even consider handing ethnic-Koreans from China citizenship, who make up the bulk of these foreigners.
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joesp



Joined: 16 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvalmer wrote:
And all these foreigners are on visas that expire. They aren't immigrants, many may want to be, but the SK government has no plans to naturalize any of them. Also, SK won't even consider handing ethnic-Koreans from China citizenship, who make up the bulk of these foreigners.

In 2002, the Korean government came up with the F-5 visa which granted the ethnic Chinese from Taiwan a solution to their long history of trouble with Korean immigration. The F-5 is long-term residency status. One of the eligibilities for citizenship is that you have resided for 2 years on certain visa types, of which the F-5 is one of. If you are an English teacher, you will know that you are eligible to apply for citizenship after 5 years on an E-2 so you can see the preferential status they are granted. And this is without marrying a Korean.

I think you believe that non-Koreans cannot become Korean citizens, which is so so wrong.
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joesp wrote:
If you increased your knowledge of the facts, your erroneous conclusions about Korean immigration will stop making your life in Korea more unpleasant than it needs to be. Daily life is hard enough over here without your kind of mis-information.
How does this make my life unpleasant in Korea?

I think your confusing immigrant and foreigner. They aren't the same thing.

Korea in no way encourages immigration. They do however encourage foreigners to work jobs Koreans won't do, but they expect them to leave after they are no longer working. Foreign spouses are just a side-effect of rural men not being able to marry Korean women. The Korean government does not encourage foreign spouses purposely marrying Koreans in order to immigrate to Korea.
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joesp



Joined: 16 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvalmer wrote:
joesp wrote:
If you increased your knowledge of the facts, your erroneous conclusions about Korean immigration will stop making your life in Korea more unpleasant than it needs to be. Daily life is hard enough over here without your kind of mis-information.
How does this make my life unpleasant in Korea?

Because hating the government of the place where you live generally will not make you happy about being in Korea. Your despising the government's supposed stance towards immigration will only make you bite the hand that feeds, which is not a happy situation.

jvalmer wrote:
Korea in no way encourages immigration. They do however encourage foreigners to work jobs Koreans won't do, but they expect them to leave after they are no longer working.

Unfortunately, I have won every argument to the contrary so far. Unless you have more bad facts to present about anti-immigration policies that simply do not exist.

jvalmer wrote:
Foreign spouses are just a side-effect of rural men not being able to marry Korean women. The Korean government does not encourage foreign spouses purposely marrying Koreans in order to immigrate to Korea.

No, but they actively support them once they have done so. And, they allow them to apply for Korean citizenship, and get it, after 2 years of marriage and living in Korea. I don't know how you can say that this is an anti-immigration policy.
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