|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
|
 Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:57 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| jvalmer wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| Although I do predict ancestor worship Korea to go the way of the dodo in a couple of generations. So when the current generations of over 40-somethings croak, Chuseok and Seollal will become truly relaxing holidays, where your only obligation is to hand out money to your younger relatives and make a reservation at some restaurant. |
Ancestor worship isn't going anywhere. Koreans are taught from an early age to venerate the past. Moreover, it's to the advantage of those in power to keep the whole "senior" thing going. When the younger generations get their turn, they're not going to say no.
For example, a 30-something guy at work took today off to go to his mother's grave for her annual memorial. |
Well, a small hardcore portion of the population will always practice ancestor worship, but the majority won't. Half the population is Christian and a large portion of them do not perform the traditional ancestor worship. Most Korean-American families do not practice it too.
As for your 30 year old work colleague, I'm willing to bet my left nut a large portion of 30-somethings will stop practicing it when their parents pass on. With each successive generation the practice will dwindle. In the past when the majority lived in rural areas it wasn't too much of a hassle to perform the rites, since most lived near their hometowns. But now, urban Koreans literally spend hours travelling back to their ancestral hometowns, and it's a hassle to them. Chuseok will always be a holiday, but the practice of large amounts of food and traveling to your grandparents grave site will slowly dwindle away until only a small percentage of hardcore traditionalists will practice it. |
I'll take that bet, but you'll have to make it something worthwhile. I wouldn't give a fig for your left or even right nut.
Korean "Christianity" is based in the same "ethical" principles as ancestor worship. They don't bow when they visit their ancestors' graves on the traditional ceremonial days. That's the only real difference, and that's not much of a difference.
You're mistaking superficial differences for real change. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
^^^
No it''s not the only difference. The real change has been taking place for decades.
Ancestral grave visits are falling off drastically, and the rituals presented for these visits are already becoming scarce among the population. MOst families at the very most, are moving towards doing only one jaesa per year to pay respect to ALL of their deceased ancestors at once. I just watched a news magazine feature over the holiday on this very issue.
Families are moving in the direction of doing less and less preparation for jaesa for lunar holidays (which is also far reduced from previous generations). Quite a few families I know personally just go out to a restaurant for dinner. That's it.
Daughters are no longer learning the cooking methods, and the men don't want the hassle of multiple journeys.
The evidence if this 'decay' is in most conversations I have with Koreans. Just what are you basing your prediction on? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
UlsanBoy
Joined: 19 Jun 2011
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
At least all you people can say you did something. I did nothing only staid in the flat all day reading some History books and it was great but you can't tell people that. All the peeps I know here went to some Island. I'm too bone lazy for that though.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oldtrafford
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| My brother inlaw already told me once his pappa and mamma pass away the whole ceremony is off!! It's a dying duck, it will be only the most traditional and conservative of places that will bother!! So I agree with those who have said it's game, set and match!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Yeah, I'm siding with the "ancestor worship is dying off" crowd. It's not done in my family (Christian), and out of the numerous Korean adults I talked to this week about it, many either A) didn't do it, or B) pledge to not carry it on at some point in the future. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I have said I don't understand the holiday, have a nice break over Chuseok and only get dragged 1 night to my fianc�e's parents house mid week. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ThingsComeAround
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I went and it started off great.
Food, drink, and TV.
But no internet
Soon I was bored to tears. Couldn't speak with family. What else can I do? Play with the dog? That got boring fast too.
Spent my Chuseok morning doing jaesa and most of the afternoon twisting my wifes arm to go back to Seoul. We hit traffic, but I was so glad to be leaving. 
One advantage I'd list from Xmas and Thanksgiving is that we usually don't stay overnight, or have ridiculous amounts of traffic to deal with. And we share a mother tongue. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I brought books, lap top with downloaded tv programmes and games on it. In between meals with in laws it was pretty much like a normal weekend at home |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
UknowsI
Joined: 16 Apr 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I think the staying over night is a very good idea. It's a great way for the children in the family to get to know each other. Too bad they can't come up with anything more fun to do than watching TV and playing Go! Stop!. I went to the country side and it would have been perfect for the children to play hide and seek, football, and generally have a great time. It was still pretty nice though, and we enjoyed the nature and went fishing, but I feel like it could have been a little more energetic. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crescent wrote: |
^^^
No it''s not the only difference. The real change has been taking place for decades.
Ancestral grave visits are falling off drastically, and the rituals presented for these visits are already becoming scarce among the population. MOst families at the very most, are moving towards doing only one jaesa per year to pay respect to ALL of their deceased ancestors at once. I just watched a news magazine feature over the holiday on this very issue.
Families are moving in the direction of doing less and less preparation for jaesa for lunar holidays (which is also far reduced from previous generations). Quite a few families I know personally just go out to a restaurant for dinner. That's it.
Daughters are no longer learning the cooking methods, and the men don't want the hassle of multiple journeys.
The evidence if this 'decay' is in most conversations I have with Koreans. Just what are you basing your prediction on? |
You too are focusing on the outer. The thought and ethics ancestor worship engender are still very much alive. Besides, as you mention, they continue the practices.
That there isn't much available mountaintop space for tombs and/or it is too expensive doesn't change people's beliefs. That's like saying if someone has an artificial Christmas tree they don't really believe in Christ.
And let's see what happens when they grow older---the fear of death transforms many into believers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| atwood wrote: |
You too are focusing on the outer. The thought and ethics ancestor worship engender are still very much alive. Besides, as you mention, they continue the practices.
That there isn't much available mountaintop space for tombs and/or it is too expensive doesn't change people's beliefs. That's like saying if someone has an artificial Christmas tree they don't really believe in Christ.
And let's see what happens when they grow older---the fear of death transforms many into believers. |
The 'outer'? You mean the interviews and polls I saw on the weekend, are evidence of a facade? The families we know who ignore these traditions are lying? And, these other posters who have similar conversations with Koreans merely add up to evidence of a perception?
You still aren't giving any reasons why you hold your prediction, so I'd say it is you who is focusing on the outer, with a little bit of guesswork thrown in. Of course the thought and ethics behind ancestor worship is still prevalent, but it surely is not nearly AS PREVALENT as a generation or two ago. That's a fact. What goes for 'tradition' these days is a pale comparison of what it was a few decades ago, and that is not a long time.
As for your analogy, well it doesn't really apply. People find other, more personal ways of expressing their beliefs, such as saying a prayer in church or on the ritual day
I think a more suitable analogy would go something like this: When the structure of a building starts to show obvious cracks and continual decay, it eventually crumbles.
What you see as the 'outer' is a symptom of something larger going on. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oldtrafford
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| My sister in-law whose family are Seoulites use the holiday to go on holiday overseas. They're in their 60's but they did away with thanks giving long ago. This will shortly become the norm, it's a tradition that no longer belongs in a modern, hyper-hole capitalist society that is the Han race. It's purely for the country boy, country girl, they're slowly a dying breed!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| crescent wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
You too are focusing on the outer. The thought and ethics ancestor worship engender are still very much alive. Besides, as you mention, they continue the practices.
That there isn't much available mountaintop space for tombs and/or it is too expensive doesn't change people's beliefs. That's like saying if someone has an artificial Christmas tree they don't really believe in Christ.
And let's see what happens when they grow older---the fear of death transforms many into believers. |
The 'outer'? You mean the interviews and polls I saw on the weekend, are evidence of a facade? The families we know who ignore these traditions are lying? And, these other posters who have similar conversations with Koreans merely add up to evidence of a perception?
You still aren't giving any reasons why you hold your prediction, so I'd say it is you who is focusing on the outer, with a little bit of guesswork thrown in. Of course the thought and ethics behind ancestor worship is still prevalent, but it surely is not nearly AS PREVALENT as a generation or two ago. That's a fact. What goes for 'tradition' these days is a pale comparison of what it was a few decades ago, and that is not a long time.
As for your analogy, well it doesn't really apply. People find other, more personal ways of expressing their beliefs, such as saying a prayer in church or on the ritual day
I think a more suitable analogy would go something like this: When the structure of a building starts to show obvious cracks and continual decay, it eventually crumbles.
What you see as the 'outer' is a symptom of something larger going on. |
You had the TV on and since that's what you're using to validate your opinion, let's go to the tape. What do we see? Highways jammed with cars as far, no farther, than the eye can see. I guess those people weren't surveyed. I can't hear that death knell for ancestor worship you;re predicting over the rumblings of all those engines.
My analogy applies perfectly. You admit as much when you write that people are just finding other ways of expressing the same belief. Le me repeat that for you --the SAME belief.
Yes, Korean attitudes have changed dramatically. Nobody wants to live in Seoul, nobody goes to fortune tellers, nobody bows to seniors, nobody uses a matchmaker, nobody believes kimchi is the end-all and be-all of culinary art, nobody spends year and years studying for exams so they can join the elite, government officials aren't corrupt. Yes things are sooo different now.
I'm always amazed how many posters here think things are changing so dramatically in Korea. They're not.
Imagine yourself using the Seoul subway for the first time. You'd see all the arrows pointing out which direction to walk, where to stand, how to use the escalator and more. You'd think that Korea was a place where people strictly obeyed the rules and where consideration of your fellow man was valued highly. You;d be wrong, just as you're wrong about ancestor worship. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| atwood wrote: |
| Highways jammed with cars as far, no farther, than the eye can see. |
I believe this will continue, but the actual going to the grave site and bringing the loads of food will dwindle away. It just going to setting up some photos in the living room, a box of pizza in front and a few bows. People still want to see their relatives, but don't want to spend the whole day frying food. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jvalmer wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Highways jammed with cars as far, no farther, than the eye can see. |
I believe this will continue, but the actual going to the grave site and bringing the loads of food will dwindle away. It just going to setting up some photos in the living room, a box of pizza in front and a few bows. People still want to see their relatives, but don't want to spend the whole day frying food. |
So what you're saying is that it's changing, not dying out. Those are two very different things. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
