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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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WHO rankings:
Rank Country
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland
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1.The US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It is almost twice as expensive as every other developed nation. This is largely due to administrative costs which account for 19-25% of healthcare costs, and up to 34% at for-profit hospitals.
2.Other than South Africa, America is the only developed country in the world that does not provide healthcare for all of its citizens.
3.Yet, the US ranks 26th in infant mortality and 24th in the number of healthy years a person can expect to live - putting America�s healthcare system in the company of Cuba and Slovenia rather than Canada and Western European nations. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| johnnyenglishteacher2 wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
This is such crap - watch the whole response he gives (not the short clip, deliberately edited to cut him off right at the moment the heckler calls out). The attention the self-righteous Left is giving to this is total, stinking propaganda.
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The article isn't about Ron Paul but about the response of certain members of the audience. |
If so, it's still a worthless propaganda article. One or two people yelling out means nothing. We don't even know who they were, or what they really represent. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| WHO rankings: |
Screw the WHO. Why should I care what they say about anything?
| Quote: |
| 1.The US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It is almost twice as expensive as every other developed nation. This is largely due to administrative costs which account for 19-25% of healthcare costs, and up to 34% at for-profit hospitals. |
Overpriced, yes. But still the best health care and technology on the planet (which drives innovation for the rest of the world).
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| 2.Other than South Africa, America is the only developed country in the world that does not provide healthcare for all of its citizens. |
Good.
| Quote: |
| 3.Yet, the US ranks 26th in infant mortality and 24th in the number of healthy years a person can expect to live - putting America�s healthcare system in the company of Cuba and Slovenia rather than Canada and Western European nations. |
Because of a government-imposed monopoly on HMOs and strict licensing requirements leaving millions of people without proper access (in other words, artificial scarcity in the market caused by government interference). Liberate the health care system so competition can move in to serve the needs of all and make health care universally affordable. We would then have the best system in the world, as we used to. |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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while the lack of healthcare is sad, why do people get worked up over the actual death aspect of it?
the simple fact is the world is entirely too overpopulated and won't be getting better anytime soon. we are taxing the planet to its limits and death, while not only natural, is beneficial.
if i died i'm sure there would be sadness but i don't want people getting all mopey about my physical form not being here, but rather having a degree of sadness by the fact that they would not be able to share any more experiences with me.
people dying is very necessary and is not a problem, it's neglecting basic human rights because of a shoddy system that's the problem.
this relates to idea about cars getting safer. to get safer over the years they have gotten much heavier, using many more natural resources to build and power. instead, we should be reverting the other way and creating them as light and fuel efficient as possible. we coddle and baby people way too much and the world is hurting because of it. |
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No_hite_pls
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
the simple fact is the world is entirely too overpopulated and won't be getting better anytime soon. we are taxing the planet to its limits and death, while not only natural, is beneficial.
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IMO The world is not even close to being overpopulated. In America and many places in Western Europe there is so much unused land that people just grow grass on it and mow it with a lawn mower once of week. We produce so much food that people are fat in the industrialized world. Even South Korea produces more food than it can eat! South Korea is 70% mountains and the size of Indiana with nearing 50 million people and has a large food surplus! I think the US could easily support a population of at least 2 billion with the amount of food it is able to produce. China has way way less arable land than the states and has a food surplus with 1.3 billion people. |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| No_hite_pls wrote: |
| IMO The world is not even close to being overpopulated. In America and many places in Western Europe there is so much unused land that people just grow grass on it and mow it with a lawn mower once of week. We produce so much food that people are fat in the industrialized world. Even South Korea produces more food than it can eat! South Korea is 70% mountains and the size of Indiana with nearing 50 million people and has a large food surplus! I think the US could easily support a population of at least 2 billion with the amount of food it is able to produce. China has way way less arable land than the states and has a food surplus with 1.3 billion people. |
yes there is a lot of land. for the world to be overpopulated it does NOT mean that every square inch of land needs to be covered with people. in fact if you had the population density of seoul everyone in the world could easily fit in texas. the concept of overpopulation is much much deeper than that.
yes, the industrialized world does produce a lot of food, but it is mass produced and you would be shocked at how far from natural it is. if food were produced naturally as it were a few centuries ago the world could not support itself with the amount of people it currently has. let's not even mention the advent of commercial corn which drives almost everything. all of this mass produced food is taxing the earth to a point where it cannot replenish itself to meet demand. it's to the point where the soil where almost all our crops are grown can't even support the crops, so they need to use nitrate-heavy fertilizer which is mainly made from guess what: natural gas.
as for south korea, it doesn't produce nearly enough food to support itself. i could be wrong on the exact number but last time i checked they imported around 70% of their food. the only food that korea makes enough of for itself is rice and that was because of past legislature demanding it to be so.
and all this is just talking about food, not even cracking into the greater picture that includes all other natural resources such as rare-earth minerals (read how china has been using embargos recently to put a chokehold on japan and the us), potable water, oil, etc. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
| while the lack of healthcare is sad, why do people get worked up over the actual death aspect of it? |
Because people love their friends and families and don't want them to die unnecessarily. Obviously. And what kind of a question is that anyway? It would be like if somebody walked up to your mother, pulled out a gun, snuffed her life out, and then asked you all nonchalantly "what are you getting all worked up about?"
(assuming of course you would get worked up about it, and I certainly hope that would be your natural response  )
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| the simple fact is the world is entirely too overpopulated and won't be getting better anytime soon. we are taxing the planet to its limits and death, while not only natural, is beneficial. |
Proof? |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
Because people love their friends and families and don't want them to die unnecessarily. Obviously. And what kind of a question is that anyway? It would be like if somebody walked up to your mother, pulled out a gun, snuffed her life out, and then asked you all nonchalantly "what are you getting all worked up about?"
(assuming of course you would get worked up about it, and I certainly hope that would be your natural response ) |
that scenario has nothing to do with my point. if that were to happen then it would be unfortunate, but it would have happened. not that i want it to, but that's life. and to say that people love their friends and families and don't want them to die unnecessarily is kind of a empty statement that really doesn't make sense. there aren't really any deaths that are "necessary" besides those to keep the balance of nature in place (which is part of my point). to have a family member murdered was neither necessary or unnecessary, it just happened. obviously i wouldn't be thrilled about it but i'm not naive enough to think that death isn't inevitable (to give a little clarity to the situation i have lost multiple family members).
before anyone goes off about people like osama, hitler, etc., those are rare cases and don't fall in the majority of situations.
people really fear death irrationally and that was the other part of my point.
i normally would but it's a long week at work and i'm honestly too tired to find any. there are countless documents out there that support it however. if you would like i welcome you to search yourself, they definitely exist. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| 3.Yet, the US ranks 26th in infant mortality and 24th in the number of healthy years a person can expect to live - putting America�s healthcare system in the company of Cuba and Slovenia rather than Canada and Western European nations. |
Homicide rates? Diet?
What ever criticisms one might have of Americans' love of hamburgers, or American gun laws, life expectancy has little to do with healthcare.
As for infant mortality, have the statistics been controlled for race?
| Catman wrote: |
WHO rankings:
Rank Country
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland
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Italy is #2, yet in 2006, Silvio Berlusconi travelled all the way to the Great Satan to receive heart surgery. Why was that? |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:20 am Post subject: |
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The WHO rankings are bogus.
The WHO has stopped doing any sort of actual comparison of health care because it is too difficult (for them) to do. Past rankings compared apples and oranges - they failed to control for all demographic factors - so that the results are hopelessly skewed and meaningless.
If you were comparing two hospitals, for example, and one was a pediatric care center and one was a geriatric care center, they would have different death rates.
To compare stats for life expectancy you have to control for all related demographic factors in order to compare individuals of the same ethnic background, the same birth year, with the same pre-existing conditions etc. Such scientific factors were not taken into account, so the WHO comparison is just bogus.
It is better to use informed observation than to use figures from political organizations that were created for political propaganda purposes and are deliberately and completely wrong. They were created and intended to mislead those in the world who are easliy duped. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
Italy is #2, yet in 2006, Silvio Berlusconi travelled all the way to the Great Satan to receive heart surgery. Why was that? |
Because he is rich.
The US has the best healthcare in the world. Just not the best healthcare system. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
Italy is #2, yet in 2006, Silvio Berlusconi travelled all the way to the Great Satan to receive heart surgery. Why was that? |
Because he is rich.
The US has the best healthcare in the world. Just not the best healthcare system. |
Correction:
The US has the best healthcare in the world. It would be even better if the government would butt out and stop trying to regulate and micromanage it.
The US has the best healthcare system in the world, other than the government portion.
The US healthcare system is open and accessable to all.
What confuses people is ability to pay. This is a separate issue. People are also confused by the concept of "insurance" and usually don't want insurance, they just want someone else to pay for something they can and should buy for themselves.
The overwhelming majority of the population can afford health care despite the deleterious effects of socialism in the US. Most choose to be covered by insurance, but others opt out due to the high cost and unnecessary coverages - the cost of insurance is also more than double due to government regulations.
Government regulation has also caused healthcare costs to be more than double what they would be in a free market. Government subsidies have driven up demand for unnecessary services causing demand increases (a shift in the demand curve) driving up prices even more.
Massive socialism (including taxation of incomes and property, regulation and minimum wage laws) has caused poverty, unemployment and reduced the US standard of living by 90% from where it would have been had the government stayed out.
All of these effects of the fascist-socialist government are in constant dollars. Of course the Fed has inflated the currency (the dollar has lost nearly 99% of its value since its inception) and this has had additional negative effects on the whole economy, including health care.
So, without the government:
Health care costs would be half of what they are.
This would make insurance half as well, but insurance regs also caused insuarance costs to be double, so in a free market, insurance for health care would be 1/4 of today's costs. And in a free market, US average income would be 10 times what it is today.
In a free market there are few who can not afford health care and more than enough private charity options to take care of them.
The problem with healthcare in the US is too much socialism. |
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johnnyenglishteacher2
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway - you haven't answered my question. |
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johnnyenglishteacher2
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| the fact is, there are many potentially lethal diseases and medical conditions that can be easily treated if detected early enough. There are many other conditions which can be treated at great expense, but which could have been treated more easily and cheaply if detected early. People without health insurance often don't get preventative medicine, routine health screenings and treatment of minor symptoms which could indicate more serious conditions. Ron Paul may be correct that hospitals can and do treat patients who don't have insurance or the ability to pay, but if the uninsured avoid medical treatment because of the expense, and only go to the hospital when they are forced to by the seriousness of their condition, the free treatment that the hospitals may provide is likely to be less successful and incredibly more expensive. Since the uninsured cannot pay for this expensive treatment, it ends up being paid for by the higher prices that everyone else must pay so that the hospital can stay in business. Providing free preventative medicine would be much cheaper than providing the free treatment of advanced conditions that hospitals often end up giving. And uninsured patients sometimes do die if the do not receive their free treatment soon enough. |
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