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calendar
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I think that you're just here to have some fun. You know what to say to get people riled up, and that's what you're doing |
i think you need to stop playing at being an amateur psychologist or mind reader. You are way off. i was the one riled up by the immediate accusation of discrimination when no real evidence existed of such and with the OP's refusal to allow the Korean business owner the same rights he allows western ones to have.
The distortions made in the western culture are huge now and leads people to all sorts of bad reactions towards others because they apply a false definition to an action that they can't prove true. The OP is acting like a spoiled child who didn't get his way. All he had to do, and I have done this many times, is to just say thank you and leave for another shop that is willing to serve him.
There is no need to make a federal case out of this incident. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Of course there is evidence of discrimination.
Whether or not you accept it is up to you.
If the western store owner turns away a coloured patron, then that's discrimination as well.
So if a western person does it, or a korean person does it, it's both discrimination. Could be based on passport, could be based on language, could be based on colour. |
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calendar
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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I would disagree because the mere act of turning away someone of color is not conclusive proof that discrimination was the motivation. That would be the assumed conclusion and most likely the wrong one. Given the fact that many businesses hang the sign 'we reserve the right...' to protect themselves from such charges.
Just because the sign may not be hung in a Korean shop doesn't mean that that right has been abolished. I think that westerners need to be less condemning when faced with rejection of their business and remember that he may have come in at a bad time. The Op said he left and came back later, well maybe he hit the store at the owner's lunch time and the Korean customers did not.
I would rather err on the side of 'preference' than to accuse someone of discrimination. I went to a Korean Tailor once, who wouldn't serve me. Did I get upset and cry discrimination. No. I left the shop disappointed but it was his right not to serve me. and there may be many reasons for his refusal. he is not obligated to serve everyone who walks into his shop.
If he was then he would be under totalitarian thinking not democratic or capitalist. Many Fts just need to lighten up and stop taking everything so personally or learn how the immigrants in their country feel when they are turned away by the white shopkeepers there. |
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ThingsComeAround
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| calendar wrote: |
I would disagree because the mere act of turning away someone of color is not conclusive proof that discrimination was the motivation. That would be the assumed conclusion and most likely the wrong one. Given the fact that many businesses hang the sign 'we reserve the right...' to protect themselves from such charges.
Just because the sign may not be hung in a Korean shop doesn't mean that that right has been abolished. I think that westerners need to be less condemning when faced with rejection of their business and remember that he may have come in at a bad time. The Op said he left and came back later, well maybe he hit the store at the owner's lunch time and the Korean customers did not.
I would rather err on the side of 'preference' than to accuse someone of discrimination. I went to a Korean Tailor once, who wouldn't serve me. Did I get upset and cry discrimination. No. I left the shop disappointed but it was his right not to serve me. and there may be many reasons for his refusal. he is not obligated to serve everyone who walks into his shop.
If he was then he would be under totalitarian thinking not democratic or capitalist. Many Fts just need to lighten up and stop taking everything so personally or learn how the immigrants in their country feel when they are turned away by the white shopkeepers there. |
Wow.
You are a troll, a sock, and a coward. You don't understand the meaning of discrimination. |
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Koreadays
Joined: 20 May 2008
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| All fenders were actually made in a Korean factory until about 1 year ago when the factory moved to China. |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| God Mrs Parks, how can you prove that he sent you to the back of the bus because your are black? you need to lighten up and stop taking things so personally. You blacks are behaving like spoiled children just because you dont get your way! |
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Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| God Mrs Parks, how can you prove that he sent you to the back of the bus because your are black? you need to lighten up and stop taking things so personally. You blacks are behaving like spoiled children just because you dont get your way |
To compare Mrs. Parks actions with the OPs situation is utterly absurd. The OP is not a slave, there are no laws restricting his actions, he was not forced to go into that store.
Then equating the FT situation with the blacks of pre-1964 (though some discrimination continues for them) is just as absurd. We have good paying jobs, free homes, we get to come and go as we please, leave the country and so much more.
The OP just didn't like not being served hand and foot when he demanded it and his ego got hurt. So he comes on here and makes his sob story to get an ego boost from like-minded people. |
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calendar
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ThingsComeAround wrote: |
Wow.
You are a troll, a sock, and a coward. You don't understand the meaning of discrimination. |
NO but I see you do not grasp the concept of what a discussion is. It is not like-minded people rubber stamping what one person says but people who have different viewpoints discussing a topic. They do not all agree and through discussion of these differing points realize that they may have been mistaken in rushing to falsely accuse some innocent shopkeeper.
Technically, I could say that th OP supports discrimination against the shopkeeper because the OP tried to force his ideas upon him and would not let the shopkeeper run his business as he saw fit. If the Op didn't like how he was treated, he is free to move on to the next guy and get what he wants.
I see nothing in the shopkeeper's (from what we know) behavior that he was discriminating against the OP. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| calendar wrote: |
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| God Mrs Parks, how can you prove that he sent you to the back of the bus because your are black? you need to lighten up and stop taking things so personally. You blacks are behaving like spoiled children just because you dont get your way |
To compare Mrs. Parks actions with the OPs situation is utterly absurd. The OP is not a slave, there are no laws restricting his actions, he was not forced to go into that store.
Then equating the FT situation with the blacks of pre-1964 (though some discrimination continues for them) is just as absurd. We have good paying jobs, free homes, we get to come and go as we please, leave the country and so much more.
The OP just didn't like not being served hand and foot when he demanded it and his ego got hurt. So he comes on here and makes his sob story to get an ego boost from like-minded people. |
Mrs. Parks was neither a slave, nor was she forced to go onto that bus. You fail. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| I would disagree because the mere act of turning away someone of color is not conclusive proof that discrimination was the motivation. That would be the assumed conclusion and most likely the wrong one. Given the fact that many businesses hang the sign 'we reserve the right...' to protect themselves from such charges. |
Just because you don't think it's conclusive proof doesn't mean it isn't a form of evidence. OPs testimony is a form of evidence. You can either accept it or reject it. Also, who decides whether or not an assumed conclusion is right or wrong? You?
Also, just because a shop keeper puts up the "we reserve..." sign, doesn't mean that discrimination magically disappears, which you seem to believe. you can put up the sign and also discriminate.
| Quote: |
| Just because the sign may not be hung in a Korean shop doesn't mean that that right has been abolished. I think that westerners need to be less condemning when faced with rejection of their business and remember that he may have come in at a bad time. The Op said he left and came back later, well maybe he hit the store at the owner's lunch time and the Korean customers did not. |
Just because the right exists doesn't mean that discrimination can't coexist along with it. A shop keeper has the right to refuse service, but they can also discriminate based on anything they want at the same time.
Maybe you're right that it was bad timing and not discrimination. but maybe you're wrong and it was. you have no proof to prove otherwise.
| Quote: |
| I would rather err on the side of 'preference' than to accuse someone of discrimination. I went to a Korean Tailor once, who wouldn't serve me. Did I get upset and cry discrimination. No. I left the shop disappointed but it was his right not to serve me. and there may be many reasons for his refusal. he is not obligated to serve everyone who walks into his shop. |
It may or may not be the shop keepers right, but if the shop owner is picking and choosing whom to serve, then that's basically the definition of discrimination.
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| If he was then he would be under totalitarian thinking not democratic or capitalist. Many Fts just need to lighten up and stop taking everything so personally or learn how the immigrants in their country feel when they are turned away by the white shopkeepers there. |
What country are you talking about?
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| To compare Mrs. Parks actions with the OPs situation is utterly absurd. The OP is not a slave, there are no laws restricting his actions, he was not forced to go into that store. |
Same as above, Mrs. Parks was not a slave, no laws restricting her actions and nobody forced her to go onto the bus.
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| The OP just didn't like not being served hand and foot when he demanded it and his ego got hurt. So he comes on here and makes his sob story to get an ego boost from like-minded people. |
The OP wanted the same service that Koreans got. Not exactly wanting to be served 'hand and foot'. |
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zeppelin
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Koreadays wrote: |
| All fenders were actually made in a Korean factory until about 1 year ago when the factory moved to China. |
That's Completely untrue. Fender products are made in the USA, Mexico, and Japan.
Squier are fender's budget brand and I think some of those are or were made in Korea. I've seen a lot of terrible fakes in Korea. |
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happiness
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:11 am Post subject: |
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well, you dont know me from adam, but i collect vintage guitars and amps and have forever. nagwon and alot of the shops here have real fenders. the read deals.
cheap korean and chinese copies do exist, but in my experience, ive never seen any fakes. real players can tell, guys ..come on. |
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calendar
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| OPs testimony is a form of evidence |
No, it is hearsay and that is not admissable in court because it has nothing to substantiate it. For all we know the Op was the jerk but decided to caste himself in the good light and the shopkeeper in the bad to 'get even with him'.
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just because a shop keeper puts up the "we reserve..." sign, doesn't mean that discrimination magically disappears, which you seem to believe. you can put up the sign and also discriminate.
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Discrimination is very subjective and one of the failings of the American legal or governmental system is that they went the existential route and said that it is 'how the person perceives it' which is very wrong as every person does not perceive these acts in the same way.
The honest and actual way to judge if it is discrimination is to look for the INTENT of the person doing the deed or speaking the words. The OP did not provide any evidence fo the intent but relied upon his perception without evidence thus his claims of discrimination fall short.
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Just because the right exists doesn't mean that discrimination can't coexist along with it. A shop keeper has the right to refuse service, but they can also discriminate based on anything they want at the same time.
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I am not saying that discrimination doesn't happen I am saying that the OP can't prove it happened to him and he is libeling the shopkeeper. He needs to remember that he is in Korea and even if his claims were true, the shopkeeper could sue him and win a lot of money.
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| Maybe you're right that it was bad timing and not discrimination. but maybe you're wrong and it was. you have no proof to prove otherwise. |
All a good defense attorney has to do is provide reasonable doubt (under the American and most western legal systems) and I have done that. The OP can't prove his claim.
For all we know the OP visited the shop previously and did something that made the owner dislike him so he was tossed the second time he visited. It is known to happen.
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| It may or may not be the shop keepers right, but if the shop owner is picking and choosing whom to serve, then that's basically the definition of discrimination |
Under's whose definition? The Korean or western one? Or the western dictionary's or thea Korean source? You can't point to the western dictionary as it was written under western influence thus rendering it invalid in different cultures.
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| What country are you talking about? |
The FTs' home country. Any of them will suffice.
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| Same as above, Mrs. Parks was not a slave, no laws restricting her actions and nobody forced her to go onto the bus. |
But she was living under a different set of laws than the OP. Here whites and Koreans can sit together on a bus, drink from the same fountains, eat at the same rest., gamble in the same casinos (example only) and so on. The blacks had laws targeting them and keeping them from integrating into society and being thought of as 1st class citizens. The Op does not. He can even marry a Korean girl with no threat to his life, like the blacks had.
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| The OP wanted the same service that Koreans got. Not exactly wanting to be served 'hand and foot'. |
So? The refusal of service is not strict evidence that discrimination has occured. I won't rehash the reasons for that statement. What is that saying in the west--- Want in one hand and crap in the other and see which fills up first?
The lessons taught FTs as they were growing up do apply here as well and it would help them temper their reactions and help their attitudes if they remembered them in their daily lives in this country.
New York Girl wrote:
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| Mrs. Parks was neither a slave, nor was she forced to go onto that bus. You fail. |
What a pithy, uninformed and ill-mannered comment. Do you have something to substantiate that remark that would make you a credible contributor to the constructive discussion? |
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calendar
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:00 am Post subject: |
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As an afterthought, he is also libeling the Nagwon Music Arcade by placing its name in the thread title and his posts coupled with his comments about how the shopkeepers are.
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| Discrimination at Nagwon Music Arcade |
He should be thankful that those shopkeepers and the owners of the arcade do not read Dave's or if they do, they let his rants slide. |
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Plume D'ella Plumeria
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Location: The Lost Horizon
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:37 am Post subject: |
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Is this calendar individual a Korean? A gyopo perhaps? He (and I do think it's a "he") seems awfully angry and not quite right.
And NYC had it right. Rosa Parks was not a slave; far from it. No need to denigrate her (NYC I mean, not Ms. Parks) for calling him out.
And is this the same guy who slaps kids upside their heads? I am referring to another current thread.
It really makes you wonder about some of the people in the wonderful world of Korean EFL ... |
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