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Angry Bird Rios
Joined: 15 Sep 2011
Location: Flinging through the air
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 Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
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Bachmann: It's ok to spread lies about vaccines because I never said I'm a doctor
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Nice job, Shelly. |
Isn't that like the lawsuit Fox won saying that they are not in the truth-telling business?
Anyway, the irony is that Bachmann is essentially right: vaccines do more harm than good. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| Angry Bird Rios wrote: |
| caniff wrote: |
| Quote: |
Bachmann: It's ok to spread lies about vaccines because I never said I'm a doctor
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Nice job, Shelly. |
Isn't that like the lawsuit Fox won saying that they are not in the truth-telling business?
Anyway, the irony is that Bachmann is essentially right: vaccines do more harm than good. |
Is that what they say in Jesusland?
There's no medical evidence to support your position. The scares about HPV vaccines and autism were debunked.
I actually agree that parents should have the choice (and in many states they can opt-out), but to suggest that HPV vaccines are dangerous flies in the face of all the evidence. |
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Angry Bird Rios
Joined: 15 Sep 2011
Location: Flinging through the air
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Angry Bird Rios wrote: |
| caniff wrote: |
| Quote: |
Bachmann: It's ok to spread lies about vaccines because I never said I'm a doctor
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Nice job, Shelly. |
Isn't that like the lawsuit Fox won saying that they are not in the truth-telling business?
Anyway, the irony is that Bachmann is essentially right: vaccines do more harm than good. |
Is that what they say in Jesusland? |
I have no idea what people there believe.
| Quote: |
There's no medical evidence to support your position. The scares about HPV vaccines and autism were debunked.
I actually agree that parents should have the choice (and in many states they can opt-out), but to suggest that HPV vaccines are dangerous flies in the face of all the evidence. |
 HAHAHAHAHA Actually, I shouldn't laugh because the effects are quite serious and sad.
Would you believe the National Vaccine Information Center? Do the search there: Gardasil, the vaccine about which Bachmann was commenting, has over 22,000 adverse effects including over 90 deaths. It is estimated that only 1-10% of all adverse effects are reported. You do the math.
How dare you use some anonymous HuffPo commenter as your source!  Were you drunk when you posted that? I'll give you a second chance because you are usually better than that (or, cut your losses and just simply admit that you blew it this time). |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| Angry Bird Rios wrote: |
| ...vaccines do more harm than good. |
Really. Even if the miniscule percentage of side-effect damage from all vaccines combined could be proven (a doubtful proposition, at best), the millions upon millions of lives not lost to Smallpos, Bubonic Plague, Yellow Fever, at al, do not, in your contruct, constitute more good than harm. Really? What flavor is your cool-ade? |
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Angry Bird Rios
Joined: 15 Sep 2011
Location: Flinging through the air
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| daskalos wrote: |
| Angry Bird Rios wrote: |
| ...vaccines do more harm than good. |
Really. Even if the miniscule percentage of side-effect damage from all vaccines combined could be proven (a doubtful proposition, at best), the millions upon millions of lives not lost to Smallpos, Bubonic Plague, Yellow Fever, at al, do not, in your contruct, constitute more good than harm. Really? What flavor is your cool-ade? |
If I wanted to collude in your taking this thread off topic, I'd say that assuming that 10% of adverse effect are reported, that means there are over 220,000 of them including over 900 deaths. That to you is "miniscule"?
As far as "all the lives saved," can you show me a single study from a peer-reviewed professional journal demonstrating that, or even any proving the efficacy of vaccinations? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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How about the absence of mass die-offs from small pox, bubonic plague, yellow fever, measles, et al?
The revolt against modernity and science among members of the right is breath-taking. I like the analogy I heard a week or so ago: It's like sitting down with a friend to plan a trip around the world, only to discover that your friend believes the world is flat.
While the rest of the world moves on, political discourse in the US gets derailed into debating and re-fighting the Enlightenment vs Medievalism. <<head>> |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| Angry Bird Rios wrote: |
| If I wanted to collude in your taking this thread off topic, I'd say that assuming that 10% of adverse effect are reported, that means there are over 220,000 of them including over 900 deaths. That to you is "miniscule"? |
So, if I wanted to accept your numbers, which are bogus, I would still say I'm right. Nine hundred deaths (or ten percent, or whatever you mean by your numbers) seems to me a much smaller number than was killed by smallpox, in its day, or bubonic plague, or f-ing measles.
| Angry Bird Rios wrote: |
| As far as "all the lives saved," can you show me a single study from a peer-reviewed professional journal demonstrating that, or even any proving the efficacy of vaccinations? |
I could point you toward peer reviewed studies, but I'm not going to take the time to look them up. Pick up a history book. Are you really arguing that vaccinations kill more people than they save? Really? Oh my Christ in heaven, if you are for real, and if there is more than one of you, then humanity is indeed doomed. |
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Angry Bird Rios
Joined: 15 Sep 2011
Location: Flinging through the air
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| daskalos wrote: |
| Angry Bird Rios wrote: |
| If I wanted to collude in your taking this thread off topic, I'd say that assuming that 10% of adverse effect are reported, that means there are over 220,000 of them including over 900 deaths. That to you is "miniscule"? |
So, if I wanted to accept your numbers, which are bogus, I would still say I'm right. Nine hundred deaths (or ten percent, or whatever you mean by your numbers) seems to me a much smaller number than was killed by smallpox, in its day, or bubonic plague, or f-ing measles.
| Angry Bird Rios wrote: |
| As far as "all the lives saved," can you show me a single study from a peer-reviewed professional journal demonstrating that, or even any proving the efficacy of vaccinations? |
I could point you toward peer reviewed studies, but I'm not going to take the time to look them up. Pick up a history book. Are you really arguing that vaccinations kill more people than they save? Really? Oh my Christ in heaven, if you are for real, and if there is more than one of you, then humanity is indeed doomed. |
So the US government's numbers are bogus? If the government were the ones reporting them I might agree with you, but in this case they are merely collecting reports made by doctors of adverse effects upon their patients, but of course I wouldn't expect you to actually look at or be able to understand the raw data, while I would expect that you regurgitate the pablum fed you by that high school textbook you want me to pick up. And the numbers I quoted are not for ALL vaccines, such as smallpox, measles, etc., but merely for Gardisil.
Why is it so hard to believe that injections containing live virus or viral DNA, a preparation containing mercury, a known toxin, and contaminants among other noxious ingredients can do damage? Why in April did Merck silently remove the statement from the package insert that said their Gardisil contained no live virus or viral DNA? Maybe because 100% of the samples tested from a number of countries (including the US) were found to contain them? And why are nine-year-old boys being forced to receive a vaccination promoted to prevent cervical cancer anyway? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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Angry Bird Rios wrote:
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| Anyway, the irony is that Bachmann is essentially right: vaccines do more harm than good. |
Then ABR wrote:
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And the numbers I quoted are not for ALL vaccines, such as smallpox, measles, etc., but merely for Gardisil.
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Perhaps if you had written something like: "This vaccine does more harm than good"...
Just a thought. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:24 am Post subject: |
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I found some more fun stuff for this thread:
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One ex-staffer said her penchant for inventing experiences out of whole cloth dates to her very first week in Congress.
It was January 2007, and Bachmann ordered a senior staff member to get her the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff � then Marine Corps Gen. Peter Pace � on the phone immediately.
The senior staff member told Bachmann that it would likely not be possible for a junior member of Congress to speak with the chairman so easily, and Bachmann did not speak with Pace that week.
But that didn�t stop Bachmann from going on a radio program and telling listeners that she did. �I just spoke with the chairman of the Joint Chiefs,� Bachmann told the radio host, according to a staff member familiar with the conversation.
Soon after, Bachmann found herself in hot water for another false claim.
In a recorded interview with the St. Cloud Times, she said the U.S. had agreed to partition Iraq and turn part of it over to Iran. �They are going to get half of Iraq and that is going to be a terrorist safe haven zone,� she said at the time.
Bachmann�s comments were picked up by the popular Drudge Report website, and she was forced to issue a statement of quasi-apology: �I�m sorry if my words have been misconstrued.�
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Through January 2011, Bachmann held the rare distinction of having had every one of her claims that were evaluated by PolitiFact rated either �False� or �Pants on Fire.� The streak ended at 13 when a Bachmann statement about the stimulus merited a mere �Mostly False.�
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http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0911/63699_Page2.html
This woman is  |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:01 am Post subject: |
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^
The sad thing is that she is the right's best claim to an intellectual. 'Intellectual' is of course just another word they can re-define to mean 'What I say is true because it is what my gut tells me'. It all started with the magic hand of the market and went downhill from there.
Once a person detaches from reality, there is no telling where they will end up. |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| How about the absence of mass die-offs from small pox, bubonic plague, yellow fever, measles, et al? |
All those diseases began declining in incidence BEFORE vaccines were introduced. Then they came along and took credit for the decline. Anyway, the Gardisil vaccine is certainly a killer:
14 Year old California Girl Dies 14 Days Post-Gardasil Vaccination; Family Finds Adolescent Dead in Bed - October 20, 2011 |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:31 am Post subject: |
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Measles used to be pretty deadly for us white folks, too. As time went on, only the survivors...um, survived. Then measles wasn't such a big problem to white folks.
Personally, I'm waiting for the disease that takes out the stupid in massive numbers.
Paranoia and anti-government hang-ups don't really make for much of a world view. |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Measles used to be pretty deadly for us white folks, too. As time went on, only the survivors...um, survived. Then measles wasn't such a big problem to white folks. |
Exactly. The incidence began declining even before the vaccine was introduced.
| Quote: |
| Paranoia and anti-government hang-ups don't really make for much of a world view. |
So now government and medical data = "[p]aranoia and anti-government hang-ups"?  And our founding fathers' with their "anti-government hang-ups" did not have much of a worldview, eh? At least now we see what you really think of our country.
Anyway, thanks for allowing me the opportunity of humoring you:
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During January 1--May 20, 2011, a total of 118 cases of measles were reported to the CDC from 23 states and New York City. There were no fatalities. Among the 118 cases, 105 were both �import-associated� and unvaccinated. Of the 87 U.S. residents who came down with measles, 74 were unvaccinated: 39 under age 20, and 35 age 20 and older. 6 The CDC focused heavily on the unvaccinated measles victims while giving no time to the analysis of those vaccinated individuals who also became ill. In fact, 13 of the group (17.5%) had received the MMR vaccine but got measles anyway! While the CDC uses these incidents of disease outbreak to stress the need for vigilant adherence to the vaccine schedule, the real take home message here is that 17.5% of a group of vaccinated individuals got sick despite the vaccine. One thing, however, is certain: the unvaccinated people in this group who recovered (all of them) now have a lifelong immunity against measles. For the ones who got the measles despite having been vaccinated, we just don�t know. Could the vaccine prevent these people from developing the normal lifetime immunity? So far, no researcher has taken on this issue.
Likewise, there was a 1985 outbreak of measles in a Texas community in which 14 students out of 1806 contracted measles, and all of the students were vaccinated � no exceptions, and no reports of exposure from a foreign endemic area for any of the students. 7 |
http://gna.squarespace.com/home/dr-gary-null-phd-and-nancy-ashley-ms-vmd-the-myth-that-vacci.html |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| Of the 87 U.S. residents who came down with measles, 74 were unvaccinated: 39 under age 20, and 35 age 20 and older. 6 The CDC focused heavily on the unvaccinated measles victims while giving no time to the analysis of those vaccinated individuals who also became ill. In fact, 13 of the group (17.5%) had received the MMR vaccine but got measles anyway! While the CDC uses these incidents of disease outbreak to stress the need for vigilant adherence to the vaccine schedule, the real take home message here is that 17.5% of a group of vaccinated individuals got sick despite the vaccine. |
Um. No. According to that story, 17.5% of total infections were people who had been vaccinated. This means that of all the vaccinated Americans whom the 74 unvaccinated came into contact with, only 13 contracted the disease.
It should be common sense that, if the 74 unvaccinated infected were exposed to a completely unvaccinated population, far more than 13 additional infections would have resulted. I think your bullsh*t-o-meter is broken, Ineverlie.
| wikipedia wrote: |
In Ireland, vaccination was introduced in 1985. The number of cases was 99,903 in that year. Within two years, the number of cases had fallen to 201, but this fall was not sustained: case numbers in 1989, 1993 and 2000 were 1,248, 4,328 and 1,603, respectively. This country's example illustrates the need for vaccination rates greater than 95% to prevent the spread of measles. |
I suppose the infection rate in Ireland just happened to be in a natural plummeting descent from 100,000/yr to 200/yr two years later, and the vaccine being introduced was coincidental. |
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