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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:21 am Post subject: |
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I worked in North Korea a few years ago as the The UK has had diplomatic relations with Pyongyang since 2000 and the British Council and FCO does work there with universities developing curricula and teacher training. Recently the BC has sponsored North Korean defectors to study English at their centre in Seoul
http://www.eltnews.com/news/archives/2011/05/british_embassy.html
I don't know about the defectors you've met TJ but I don't think many of the ones in this article getting free English lessons were complaining too much about the British presence in the North. What was that the Godfather said about keeping your friends close but your enemies closer? True the subject of vacations is a different one but the principle might be the same. |
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:28 am Post subject: |
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So basically you're saying you don't have the nads... Which is why you object to the term... Okay. You lose.
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whatisinmyhead
Joined: 31 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| good point. |
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ChrisLamp
Joined: 27 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| fun? |
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pedrotaves
Joined: 02 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:17 am Post subject: |
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if you watch that "vice guide to north korea" it doesn't look like a whole lot of fun. eye-opening, illuminating--definitely. |
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ChrisLamp
Joined: 27 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:23 am Post subject: |
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I posted that video.
I'm interested to hear from people who've actually been. |
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calendar
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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TJ plays games with people and avoids the hard hitting issues and my questions. Those who object to people going to NK for the reasons given probably use the same argument for boycotting Michael Moore.
"I am not going to give my hard earned dollars to support that liberal.."
Or something like that but guess what, if you do not want to then you do not have to but you do not have the right to stick your noses into other people's business and spout your ridiculous rhetoric.
I am not planning to go as I have already been there and it gives you a first hand look without the media filters and spin. Reality is a better teacher than newspaper articles. It also gives you your own perspective instead of having to adopt someone else's whose views will be distorted by whatever opinion or belief they have.
So those who oppose traveling to the North, exercise your freedom to not go and stay away but do not interfere with others who want to learn something. |
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calendar
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| The United States Constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights would beg to differ. |
I get a kick ou to fpeople who say things like this. They look to pieces of paper which declare something but forget the court rullings that have gutted what they declare to hold dear.
The U.S. Supreme Court decided that the constitution only applies to the government so corporations, businesses, and common people do not have to abide by its words. What good is a constitution if it doesn't apply to all? No rights are being protected whatsoever.
Anyone who is willing to give up their liberties for a false sense of security shoul dnot be telling others to not go to North Korea. How is one police state different from another?
Then they use the example of starvig people yet forget that people stare to death, go hungry and have no medical insurance in America. What is the difference? One is done in concentration camps while theother is swept under the rug and out of site. Which is better?
More people in America are without health insurance than the total population of the North. Is that a good thing? People die in hospital waiting rooms waiting to be seen ( at least 2 cases last year) is that better than dying in a dictatorship? Those trained to help people ignored the very people they were trained to help.
Your opinions, when we dig deeper, about the North really lose credibility when compared to a 'democracy'. Some western countries a parent can't even discipline their child, via spanking or other corporal methods, without facing loss of their families and seeing jail time. Is that right? Is that freedom? No, it is worse than North Korea. |
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calendar
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| I posted that video. |
The video is okay but the narrator makes a few factual errors and one is that North Korea doesn't allow people to film or take picturtes. Well I have seen many documenteries, and pictures by tourists and film makers taken with permission.
The Captain of the Pueblo made a very serious mistake when he did not return fire when attacked. This was a very bad version, one of the worst I have seen. (Not that that opinion mean smuch) |
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shifter2009
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Location: wisconsin
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| calendar wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The United States Constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights would beg to differ. |
I get a kick ou to fpeople who say things like this. They look to pieces of paper which declare something but forget the court rullings that have gutted what they declare to hold dear.
The U.S. Supreme Court decided that the constitution only applies to the government so corporations, businesses, and common people do not have to abide by its words. What good is a constitution if it doesn't apply to all? No rights are being protected whatsoever.
Anyone who is willing to give up their liberties for a false sense of security shoul dnot be telling others to not go to North Korea. How is one police state different from another?
Then they use the example of starvig people yet forget that people stare to death, go hungry and have no medical insurance in America. What is the difference? One is done in concentration camps while theother is swept under the rug and out of site. Which is better?
More people in America are without health insurance than the total population of the North. Is that a good thing? People die in hospital waiting rooms waiting to be seen ( at least 2 cases last year) is that better than dying in a dictatorship? Those trained to help people ignored the very people they were trained to help.
Your opinions, when we dig deeper, about the North really lose credibility when compared to a 'democracy'. Some western countries a parent can't even discipline their child, via spanking or other corporal methods, without facing loss of their families and seeing jail time. Is that right? Is that freedom? No, it is worse than North Korea. |
American health care problems are swept under the rug? Freedom is the right to beat your child? gotcha. I am done here.... |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| calendar wrote: |
I get a kick ou to fpeople who say things like this. They look to pieces of paper which declare something but forget the court rullings that have gutted what they declare to hold dear. |
You started off good here. I agree that the US government rendered the consitution and the very principles it purports to uphold obsolete long ago.
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| The U.S. Supreme Court decided that the constitution only applies to the government so corporations, businesses, and common people do not have to abide by its words. |
When did this happen? It would seem to me that the government is the one ignoring the constitution the most.
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Anyone who is willing to give up their liberties for a false sense of security shoul dnot be telling others to not go to North Korea. How is one police state different from another?
Then they use the example of starvig people yet forget that people stare to death, go hungry and have no medical insurance in America. What is the difference? One is done in concentration camps while the
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| other is swept under the rug and out of site |
. Which is better? |
Then you post this. Ok police states are all bad, but most people would still choose the lesser evil. I don't think you can compare the gulags in the NK to the situation in the US. I'd rather be poor in the US without health care rather than in a cold prison with forced labor under constant worry that a guard will smash my head in a rifle butt. It sucks to be the former but really? How are you gonna compare that to being in gulag? And no, the health care issue is not "swept under the rug." It's a major freaking issue in the US! Have you been there? It's talked about on major TV networks and political debates.
| Quote: |
| More people in America are without health insurance than the total population of the North. Is that a good thing? People die in hospital waiting rooms waiting to be seen ( at least 2 cases last year) is that better than dying in a dictatorship? Those trained to help people ignored the very people they were trained to help. |
Here your post turns ridiculous. Really? Two known cases compared to a gulag? You're saying living in the US without healthcare is the same as living in NK?
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| Your opinions, when we dig deeper, about the North really lose credibility when compared to a 'democracy'. Some western countries a parent can't even discipline their child, via spanking or other corporal methods, without facing loss of their families and seeing jail time. Is that right? Is that freedom? No, it is worse than North Korea. |
Jesus Christ. So, not being allowed to beat your child = worse than living in North Korea. Those Norks have it so good. They have the "freedom" to beat their children. I wonder how those children feel about their parents exercising their "rights." |
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bekinseki
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| ChrisLamp wrote: |
I have a question for the people who have visited.
Was it any fun at all? |
Yes, dear god yes.
I probably would've gotten bored of Korea if it weren't for going up there last year. It's the closest you'll ever get to travelling back in time, or shifting into a parallel dimension. You see some amazing things that would make most South Koreans' heads explode in envy. Beautiful architecture, especially in Pyongyang. Excellent beer and soju (though the makgeolli was terrible). Amazing women, though not like you'll have much of a shot. It'll give you a more full perspective on the peninsula, though I'm not saying you'll start siding with them.
It's fascinating to see the similarities and differences between the two Koreas. There are some small things about the North that do impress over the South, though I know saying that will probably start a cascade of haters. South Korea isn't across-the-board superior, just in most of the areas that are most important.
Don't pay attention to the Vice guide; it's all sensationalistic BS. Notice how everything at all times has to prove how North Koreans are insane, even if they're doing something relatively normal, or even admirable, like the kids in the Children's Palace. Vice is run by sensationalist idiots, and if they did an equivalent tour of South Korea it would have the same tone. |
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bekinseki
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Squire wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
| pedrotaves wrote: |
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Nice one. Will do 
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and it wouldn't be a lie either, since it sounds like china is the best place to enter NK from. |
With the current embargo/travel restrictions on N.Korea it is just about the ONLY place to enter N.Korea from (and you still need to get a Chinese visa too - another issue and expense (up to $200 for Americans) for those with short times remaining on their ARCs).
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Yea, I was under the impression it is the only place to enter from. I haven't heard of any others |
Yes, basically, you can cover up where you've been by exaggerating your time in China. Sort of like how I'm sure a lot of Americans say "I went to Canada" to cover up their flights to Cuba.
There are also flights from Malaysia, Kuwait, Russia, Singapore, and Thailand, but it's probably easiest to go through China, since you'd probably have to work out a visa there, and that's where Koryo Tours is based.
Also, China gives you the option of entering/exiting by train at Dandong/Sinuiju, provided you're not American. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Go if you want to you are not keeping the regime afloat with your money.
Just remember no one outside of aid agencies and diplomatic parties have been to North Korea, no one who has been on those tours has ever really been to North Korea.
You will not see anything real, you will see what they want you to see. I have heard that some people if there Korean is good enough have been allowed to talk to real NK citizens in 평양 but that as 'real' as it gets.
Also the posts by calendar and bekinseki are a good indicator of the sort of people you will probably tour alongside. The phrase useful idiot comes to mind. |
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bekinseki
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
Go if you want to you are not keeping the regime afloat with your money.
Just remember no one outside of aid agencies and diplomatic parties have been to North Korea, no one who has been on those tours has ever really been to North Korea.
You will not see anything real, you will see what they want you to see. I have heard that some people if there Korean is good enough have been allowed to talk to real NK citizens in 평양 but that as 'real' as it gets.
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Say what you want about how "real" it is, but if you go to any country and just stay on resorts, you're not getting a real picture of the country you're visiting. What does it take--do you have to visit the gulags? How many prisons have you been to in South Korea?
The filters are in place up there, but they're weakening all the time. When you know their bias, it's easy to get beyond.
You are right that knowing a bit of Korean improves your experience quite a lot. You'll be surprised what you overhear. Only people fluent in English are trained on what to say and not say, but the people who only know Korean will let slip a lot of things.
| aq8knyus wrote: |
Also the posts by calendar and bekinseki are a good indicator of the sort of people you will probably tour alongside. The phrase useful idiot comes to mind. |
No, actually most of the people on my tour were useless idiots. Only one had ever been to South Korea before. For the rest, it was all new, and a lot of them were clearly suffering from culture shock throughout the trip. Unpleasant people that I could see transforming into the stereotypical English teachers of the South. |
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